The first ever Baker B3 in Manila!!! - LOCKED

[deltaslim]

...  however, if one is posed with a question as to why he think something is great AND they respond with a lot of praises punctuating it with statements which are demeaning to other guitars...now, you'd better have something good to back those claims up otherwise all you've said is all a bag of hot air.

Being subjective about music, guitars and gear is a tough subject but when you choose to say that something is better than anything else AND you preface your threads with headlines like "The First Baker in the Philippines," or "The First Diezel Herbert in the Philippines," there has to be more substance to what you say (or do) to explain to people why you feel this way. You wouldn't be posting news of your latest acquisition on an internet forum if some part of you didn't want to share information on it, right? Bragging rights aside, you don't have to defend your purchase but, at the very least, explain why you got a particular impression  in a good, clear and non-derogatory way.  Now, I ain't asking you to play amazing riffs but, good lord, man, do play something that is made up of some coherent chords...something - anything - would be better than the nonsense noodling I heard.

Well said.  More important issue is credibility.

This has been my contention from Day One.  Alex likes giving props to himself, his gear and, lately, even his skills... and he does it at the expense of others, me being his favorite (eg, "It's about time I showed I have better hands than deltaslim." - firemodel55).  But I've seen him play in person even before this video came out and that's why IMO he has very little credibility when he critiques blues tone, blues playing, and ensemble blues sounds.  Maybe he's a better judge of metal and metal players (as evidenced from his choice of amps), but I don't know that cuz I wouldn't call myself a good judge of that style.  Hey, I'm just a blues player, right?

But it really make wonder if he really hears and knows what he claims in his posts.  Obvious naman from his posts that he is often quoting from his mentors, idols, and gear websites/forums. Let me cite an example.

On that Elegee scandal video he attempts to demo that harmonic swirl and post attack-swell. I don't know what he's pointing at his ears for cuz it's not there. But many forumites can confirm that this test is an exact copy of what Arie does to test or demo guitars for that particular quality.  Arie has the chops to do it; Alex doesn't.  So is Alex just mouthing off Arie?  How much of what Alex says is based on personal experience if he can't play and prove it in a demo himself?  The fact that he points to his ears as if to ask if Jon hears what he is hearing is, well, funny, sad, and ridiculous all at the same time.  To me, that's outright proof that he's listening with his ego, not with his ears. 

It's ok to buy/collect expensive gear.  But next time he brags that his stuff kills everything else, maybe he should just include footnotes citing his references cuz I seriously doubt that he has personal knowledge or proof for his claims.  Or maybe ask someone else to demo/test it to prove his claims about his gear's virtues.  Miks video and soundclips do a better job proving his point. 

[kawal]

a Baker B3 costs 4-5,000 US from what I remember. Its funny..you'd think that for that amount of money spent on a guitar you'd have the sense to spend just as much time and money learning to play a guitar - any guitar - first before plunking down that amount of cash. Call me odd but i find it silly to spend money on an instrument and then not use it as much or as well as I would like. When you start driving a car, you don't immediately get the best looking car to drive because you wouldn't care two sh*ts about how it handles, maneuvers or performs on the road. In this case, whether you put a Baker in the video or a $100 no-name POS guitar, I don't think the off-key bends and aimless noodling would have sounded any different. Hopefully, this guitar won't stay in a case as a trophy of sorts. It would be a shame not to play, gig and really dig into such a fine instrument, otherwise, it isn't going to be much more than an expensive paperweight.

+10
wheehw... after 9 pages ng pagbabasa (seriously, binasa ko lahat ng pages ng thread from the start), may naka-isip din ng ganitong comment.

opinyon ko, kung elibs ka dahil maganda talaga ang tunog ng gitara mo, and you're saying na forget fender or gibson custom shop guitars dahil hindi mo ipagpapalit ang gitara mo, make sure na hindi ito maluluma sa hardcase lang or maluluma kakagamit ng ibang gitarista.
remember that buying a fine instrument, like this guitar, is just the start of the process. kumbaga, hindi pa yun yung celebration nung napakagandang gitara na yon. the real deal is the part where you make-love to it, and how you enjoy making it moan and crankin it up to your (also) fine amp. take note: "you" at hindi "others". well, unless binili mo yung gitara mo para i-display sa bahay nyo or para lang sabihin sa isang musician's thread (oy wala akong sinabing talk.philmusic.com ah) na meron kang malupet na gitara. oo nga, meron akong gitarang maganda - custom made, tapos panalo ang tone, tapos nakakabit sa Diezel tube amp (using Two-Rock Crystal Cable pa!), tapos na-test na ng sikat na luthiers at critics, tapos eto na yung clips at ganito sya mag-bend.. tapos? - a question that could be answered by none other than  ______. alam nyo na..

* uy palindrome pala yung "wheehw", ngayon ko lang napansin. usually kasi hanggang lol at brb lang ako eh. 

[bluenote]

Well said.  More important issue is credibility.

This has been my contention from Day One.  Alex likes giving props to himself, his gear and, lately, even his skills... and he does it at the expense of others, me being his favorite (eg, "It's about time I showed I have better hands than deltaslim." - firemodel55).  But I've seen him play in person even before this video came out and that's why IMO he has very little credibility when he critiques blues tone, blues playing, and ensemble blues sounds.  Maybe he's a better judge of metal and metal players (as evidenced from his choice of amps), but I don't know that cuz I wouldn't call myself a good judge of that style.  Hey, I'm just a blues player, right?

But it really make wonder if he really hears and knows what he claims in his posts.  Obvious naman from his posts that he is often quoting from his mentors, idols, and gear websites/forums. Let me cite an example.

On that Elegee scandal video he attempts to demo that harmonic swirl and post attack-swell. I don't know what he's pointing at his ears for cuz it's not there. But many forumites can confirm that this test is an exact copy of what Arie does to test or demo guitars for that particular quality.  Arie has the chops to do it; Alex doesn't.  So is Alex just mouthing off Arie?  How much of what Alex says is based on personal experience if he can't play and prove it in a demo himself?  The fact that he points to his ears as if to ask if Jon hears what he is hearing is, well, funny, sad, and ridiculous all at the same time.  To me, that's outright proof that he's listening with his ego, not with his ears. 

It's ok to buy/collect expensive gear.  But next time he brags that his stuff kills everything else, maybe he should just include footnotes citing his references cuz I seriously doubt that he has personal knowledge or proof for his claims.  Or maybe ask someone else to demo/test it to prove his claims about his gear's virtues.  Miks video and soundclips do a better job proving his point. 

Ito na mismo yung sinasabi ko nuon sa thread na yun.... Bulls eye!

[turiguiliano]

Ito na mismo yung sinasabi ko nuon sa thread na yun.... Bulls eye!

mismo. hehe.

[PRSMan]

Actually adlawa yung tinest ni alex may video din sha na hawak nya yung guitara ni jon... Demo talaga yun kasi they were comparing the two guitars...

Kaya yun lumabas is to let the rest of us watch a sort of an A vs. B comparison...

Siyempre he tried both guitars -- kaya nga siya inimbita ni Jon di ba?  From that standpoint, oo, "demo" nga yun.

But you're missing the point.  That was not meant "to let the rest of us watch a sort of an A vs. B comparison" right?

Dude, kung ikaw may bad hair day sa pag-gigitara -- although madalang lang siguro ito kasi professional ka na -- and someone took a video of it and distributed it WITHOUT your knowledge... anong magiging reaction mo?  And what would you think of people trying to defend the position of the person who distributed the video?

[bendedbeam]

What gives you the right to say what someone should do or not do with his money?  It's his money -- he worked hard for it, and deserves to use it as he sees fit.

For argument's sake, let's say that Alex needed to be more "polite" on the forum.  However, to say that he shouldn't have bought a Baker or doesn't deserve a Baker is completely wrong.

And who says that he's not taking lessons or trying to improve his playing?

Hmmm, I'm entitled to my opinion. This is how I perceive things and just posted it. I apologize it sounded offensive to you, but he built so much hype around the B3 and has set the level of expectations to an all-time high. I've seen posts wherein you can't even imagine how he was able to insert his B3 having character to a topic which is almost unrelated. I'm sure you're aware of this. Good, if he's taking lessons. Then he needs to concentrate on it, spend more time instead of stomping over people because of tone inferiority. Again IMO (best overused disclaimer, ehehe!!!)

Peace.

[IncX]

i guess my main gripe with oas was that he claimed that his baker is superior to all other guitars... and someone said its all about taste, he countered it by saying "yes its all about taste and all taste point towards my baker" ... those are not his exact words but thats what he meant. thats a pretty heavy claim.

so i can understand that ppl are having a field day laughing at oas and that clip ... because oas had a field day bashing everyone elses guitars and their taste for that matter. he ddnt explicitly say "you suck" ... but you cant help but feel "wow... my guitar actually sucks based on what oas said"

i watched the other clips ... and i guess i can rest easy... yes the baker sounds good, but it did not really give me a gas attack nor a desire to get a guitar in that price range. for me, the baker is a normal good sounding guitar... and ive heard normal good sounding guitars in the 40K php range.

in oas' book, i probably have bad taste, hehehe... but then again, i guess not all taste point towards the baker after all.

-*-

and yeah, its kinda too easy to flame oas and stuff... so i guess we should give it a rest. this will be my last "sorta flame" post.

-*-

oas, release a kick-a** blues album... its not my choice of music... but i enjoy good ones (like that i heard from perf)

-*-

and i disagree that oas "maybe" a better judge of metal tone, hehehe... if he was, he would have been palm muting an E5 chord in that clip. i mean, i would... even if i was playing thru a fender bassman 59 or a bad monkey thru a solid state amp. metal players test their guitars thru palm muting... shredders test em by running down some fast screaming licks. alternative guys test guitars by strumming chords. blues guys test by bending notes (hmmm) ...

:p

i was kidding. those are just popular stereotypes... not necessarily true

[xjepoyx]

san na si alex?

[Poundcake]

i guess my main gripe with oas was that he claimed that his baker is superior to all other guitars... and someone said its all about taste, he countered it by saying "yes its all about taste and all taste point towards my baker" ... those are not his exact words but thats what he meant. thats a pretty heavy claim.

so i can understand that ppl are having a field day laughing at oas and that clip ... because oas had a field day bashing everyone elses guitars and their taste for that matter. he ddnt explicitly say "you suck" ... but you cant help but feel "wow... my guitar actually sucks based on what oas said"

i watched the other clips ... and i guess i can rest easy... yes the baker sounds good, but it did not really give me a gas attack nor a desire to get a guitar in that price range. for me, the baker is a normal good sounding guitar... and ive heard normal good sounding guitars in the 40K php range.

in oas' book, i probably have bad taste, hehehe... but then again, i guess not all taste point towards the baker after all.

-*-

and yeah, its kinda too easy to flame oas and stuff... so i guess we should give it a rest. this will be my last "sorta flame" post.

-*-

oas, release a kick-a** blues album... its not my choice of music... but i enjoy good ones (like that i heard from perf)

-*-

and i disagree that oas "maybe" a better judge of metal tone, hehehe... if he was, he would have been palm muting an E5 chord in that clip. i mean, i would... even if i was playing thru a fender bassman 59 or a bad monkey thru a solid state amp. metal players test their guitars thru palm muting... shredders test em by running down some fast screaming licks. alternative guys test guitars by strumming chords. blues guys test by bending notes (hmmm) ...

:p

i was kidding. those are just popular stereotypes... not necessarily true

Nagpalm mute naman si Alex nung tinest nya yung PRS Tribute guitar ah hehe

[Kulas]

grabe pinag-aawayan si alex ah. he must feel really special, hehe.

[firemodel55]

Deltaslim,

This is about the Baker and not about my chops.  And never did I claim to ever be a blues player. 

If you want to start this again, just say so...

[firemodel55]

Again, I will say this... the Elegee PRS Tribute Guitar is ok for its price and will sound better than a number of PRS USA guitars.  But the Baker is far far superior to it in almost all aspects except the 21st fret. 

Now those are two statements.  If you believe in one, then you also have to  believe the other.  If you do not believe in one then you cannot believe the other because I say it from one integral perspective.  And nothing I do can ever convince you that I am credible.  But how can a great number of you be more credible on this issue if so very few of you own an Elegee PRS Tribute guitar or even a Baker? 

For you guys, who like to slam me, why dont you guys buy an Elegee PRS Tribute Guitar for P60,000?  Ang daming nagmagaling sa clips pero hindi man bumili ng Elegee PRS Tribute Guitar.  When was the last time you bought a guitar on the basis of sound clips?  I know some people use looks as the sole basis of purchase but sound clips?  I have never heard anyone buy a guitar solely on sound clips. 

But the fact remains, five guys and I tested both guitars and four of them were Jon's friends who were impressed with the Baker.  And as I said, I was impressed with the Elegee PRS Tribute because I liked it better than a number of dead sounding PRS USA. 

This is not a matter of putting down other gear but really extolling the best.  As I said before, none of my other guitars will remain with me because the Baker#55 beat all of them.  Its simple really, if you feel bad that I made your gear look bad then all I can say is that you are also uncertain and insecure on whether your own gear sounds great.  Because somebody who believes that his own gear sounds great will not be threatened by a Baker without trying it.

I do not feel special.  I am just here to post my personal opinion on the matter.

[firemodel55]

Following ang logic niyo na hindi maganda ang Baker dahil walang credibility ako, paano na si Robben Ford at credibility ni Gene Baker who is praised by so many for his guitars? 

Sino ba si psychic sushi compared to Robben Ford sa playing?  Ilan ba sa inyo willing to say na mas magaling si Psychic Sushi kay Robben Ford?  Kung sabihin niyo na taste iyan bakit bilib kayo sa aminadong strat player na purihan ang isang PRS guitar.  Dapat kumuha kayo ng isang PRS USA player pare magdemo at masabi na mas sulit ang Elegee PRS Tribute guitar.

Sino ba si Jon compared to Gene Baker?  Ilan ba sa inyo are willing to say na mas maraming nabebentang P60,000 na gitara si Jon kaysa sa mga US$5,000 na gitara na nabebenta ni Gene?  Kung sabihin niyo na ulol ang mga Amerikano na nagaaksaya na pera sa Baker, bakit hindi kayo bumili ngayon ng P60,000 na Elegee guitar of any type? 

[abyssinianson]

Following ang logic niyo na hindi maganda ang Baker dahil walang credibility ako, paano na si Robben Ford at credibility ni Gene Baker who is praised by so many for his guitars? 

Sino ba si psychic sushi compared to Robben Ford sa playing?  Ilan ba sa inyo willing to say na mas magaling si Psychic Sushi kay Robben Ford?  Kung sabihin niyo na taste iyan bakit bilib kayo sa aminadong strat player na purihan ang isang PRS guitar.  Dapat kumuha kayo ng isang PRS USA player pare magdemo at masabi na mas sulit ang Elegee PRS Tribute guitar.

Sino ba si Jon compared to Gene Baker?  Ilan ba sa inyo are willing to say na mas maraming nabebentang P60,000 na gitara si Jon kaysa sa mga US$5,000 na gitara na nabebenta ni Gene?  Kung sabihin niyo na ulol ang mga Amerikano na nagaaksaya na pera sa Baker, bakit hindi kayo bumili ngayon ng P60,000 na Elegee guitar of any type? 

i...don't...follow. so we should just look to Robben Ford and Gene Baker to buttress your opinion on a guitar? It seems to me that you are saying this: I have a Baker. I have tried a PRS tribute. I like one over the other for specific reasons because I believe there are a lot of dead sounding PRS USA guitars out there yet I can't play so, please, refer to these other people who play better since I can't demonstrate the argument I just provided.

As far as logistics for purchasing Bakers over Elegee's, I would guess that the reason why people buy more Elegee's over Baker guitars is the sheer difference in cost and the value for the money you pay. I don't know about you but comparing a $5,000 US guitar to its monetary equivalent in pesos currency is like 250,000 pesos. Now, it doesn't take an economics degree to say that comparing a guitar that costs 60,000 with a US guitar worth 250,000 pesos is, well, unfair on many levels because although Jon is an up and coming luthier, he doesn't have as much experience as Gene Baker does as a craftsman.

[bluenote]

Siyempre he tried both guitars -- kaya nga siya inimbita ni Jon di ba?  From that standpoint, oo, "demo" nga yun.

But you're missing the point.  That was not meant "to let the rest of us watch a sort of an A vs. B comparison" right?

Dude, kung ikaw may bad hair day sa pag-gigitara -- although madalang lang siguro ito kasi professional ka na -- and someone took a video of it and distributed it WITHOUT your knowledge... anong magiging reaction mo?  And what would you think of people trying to defend the position of the person who distributed the video?

Ok lang kasi alam ko naman na vinideo eh... Yes it was meant to be a comparison.... 

[abyssinianson]

Siyempre he tried both guitars -- kaya nga siya inimbita ni Jon di ba?  From that standpoint, oo, "demo" nga yun.

But you're missing the point.  That was not meant "to let the rest of us watch a sort of an A vs. B comparison" right?

Dude, kung ikaw may bad hair day sa pag-gigitara -- although madalang lang siguro ito kasi professional ka na -- and someone took a video of it and distributed it WITHOUT your knowledge... anong magiging reaction mo?  And what would you think of people trying to defend the position of the person who distributed the video?

nako..the plot thickens talaga! napaka thick...parang pochero!

[deltaslim]

Deltaslim,

This is about the Baker and not about my chops.  And never did I claim to ever be a blues player...

Magbasa ka nga...

I was talking about your credibility; your lack of chops only helped to prove your credibility is in doubt. The reason your credibility got into question is because, in that case, you claim to hear something that ONLY YOU could hear.  You were pointing to your ears to demonstrate that elusive swirl/swell.  I and many others didn't hear it. What gives? 

If you want to start this again, just say so...

Oooh... I'm quaking in my boots!  Don't bother making any more challenges.  Instead of making challenges and improving your typing skills behind your PC, why not spend time woodshedding instead so that you'll gain more credibility next time you wanna claim things that only you can hear in your bedroom.

[xjepoyx]

LOL! 5000 dollar guitar with lots of deadnotes (secret)

hehe

[alroyT]

man the onslaught continues...

[PRSMan]

Ok lang kasi alam ko naman na vinideo eh... Yes it was meant to be a comparison.... 

ay buhay.  give up na ako sa yo pre.  re-read all your arguments, and if you think you have a point, so be it.

[bluenote]

ay buhay.  give up na ako sa yo pre.  re-read all your arguments, and if you think you have a point, so be it.

Hey man kung ako ang nasa ganung sitwasyon na alam kong magiging katawatawa ako bakit naman ako mag papa kuha ng video...

Alam nyang kinukunan sha ng video bakit sha pumayag? hindi naman hiden camera ang ginamit eh...

So what are you trying to say then? Na kawawa naman si Alex dahil sa nangyari?

He allowed himself to be in that position... He had it comming cause he is always trying to prove something...

Wala naman silang pinag usapan na hindi pwedeng ilabas ang video dba?...

If you re-read all my arguments from the previous thread you'll see that what I was saying was almost exactly what deltaslim is trying to say about alex's credibility kaya nga sabi ko bulls eye...

 

[skunkyfunk]

Holy fcuk!  I never knew how much ridicule someone else is getting here.  Kinda missed out on this thread... Just for the record, Alex played some lines when he was at Shinji's studio during the mini-EB for the MTPA forum, yet no one bothers to ask for those clips, which are far more "listenable" than those bends (which are kinda killing my ears if you ask me...) 

But I know that these bends that you see in the video were done with a purpose...  To show how a guitar can sustain a note and at the same time maintain a certain wail that I cannot describe... (it totally transcends the verbal realm.) I just know that a bad guitar cannot nail that wail I am talking about...  Arie taught me a few pointers on how to test a guitar and this is just one of the methods he taught me.

Just a few things I want to share:

1.  ANY youtube video is guaranteed lo-fi, kahit direct rip pa yan sa DVD.  Because the flv format is lossy especially on the audio side (which is the standard format for youtube).
2.  ANY recording, even the best audiophile recordings, are ALWAYS less than perfect reproductions of the source.  this is why different miking techniques, outboard equipment, and all those theories in practice in the studio were invented, and they all come into play depending on the recording situation.  There are some nuances that mics, A/D converters (or tape) that cannot be represented perfectly. 
3.  Granting, that you have a PERFECT (yes PERFECT) recording of the source, you also need a PERFECT PLAYBACK SYSTEM.
4.  A bad player, no matter how great the gear is, would sound bad.  Don't blame a $20k axe and a $15k amp and call it "unworthy of its price" if the playing was done by a bad player. 
5.  Alex, you need to get your chops together, but I still see your point in this video. (See above.) So better come up with something more interesting and listenable.  THAT IS WHAT PEOPLE CAN RELATE TO. Although, I deem that this video is not representative of your playing skills. based on the very few times I've seen you play, I think you're not that bad a player, but definitely not bordering on virtuosity. 

And yes, credibility belongs to those who can play.  That is why gear manufacturers would rather spend on endorsers, than build up a mass information campaign on their indispensable tone gurus' designs. 

[skunkyfunk]

On credibility:

Who would you rather believe?  A rich man saying he's holding a 24K gold necklace?  Or a poor man saying he's holding a 24K gold necklace? 











If you really wanna know who is saying the truth, you do not pick on the person's social status.  Doesn't mean that because one is rich, means he cannot dupe you into thinking he has a 24K gold necklace, when it is an immitation. 

On the other hand, it doesn't mean that because a poor man is saying "24K gold itong kuwintas na ito" means he is not telling the truth.  Maybe some of you would tell the poor man, "Paano mo nasabi na totoong ginto yan?  May pambili ka ba ng mga alahas?"  Ano ang karanasan mo sa paghawak ng alahas?" 

Now if you really wanna know who tells the truth, run the fire test on the necklace, NOT on the person. 

[nathanmanansala]

grown men arguing about guitars

[kawal]

sige na nga... group hug na...