The Fletcher-Munson Effect (& why the big divide among guitar modellers vs.amps)

[KitC]

I remember reading an EM review of the Line6 from way back. The general consensus was that there were a few models that nailed the tone while some were a bit off. Line6, of course, will not mention that in their ads. What they will say is that their product/s will model every conceivable amp and cabinet there is. Then, there is the convenience factor of carrying an amp modeler, which is undeniable, compared to lugging around a truckload of amps and cabs.

The thing with any marketing strategy is that one mentions his strengths while conveniently sidelining their flaws. Kind of like physical modeling in keyboards where they try to convince you their string model can accurately model a string being plucked or bowed. But I didn't get my Prophecy because I wanted to hear a model of a cello string being bowed by modelled horsehairs; I got it because it had sounds that inspired me (plus the fact that I always wanted that cool looking silver-colored synth with a ribbon on a modulation 'log'). Sure, Korg would put out ads saying that the string/brass/wind models were accurate, but I tested and heard each and every preset to see if there was something I could coax out of that little keyboard; and there was.

Sure a lot of kids now don't probably know what a real AC30 sounds like. Much in the same vein that they don't know what vinyl or even tape sounds like. It's like how much this generation loves to listen on their mp3 players when those of us in the know are aware of how much information is missing in that mp3 file. The same was said, however, when recording made the transition from vinyl to tape (and maybe also from wax/shellac to vinyl). There will always be holdouts to the old technology, forever griping about how good it was back then. And there will be others pushing the boundaries, trying to find new avenues and technologies for their creative expression. To paraphrase a common cliche' then: "Think outside the (Line6) box."

[skunkyfunk]

To paraphrase a common cliche' then: "Think outside the (Line6) box."

Uhhh...

1.  Recording Studios start becoming obsolete because Juan delaCruz can set up his own studio at home with a PC and cheap plugins.
2.  People download mp3s hence the CD format will start to die.  And people don't care about the subtle flutter in the treble for low bitrate mp3s.  Hence lowering the bar for fidelity issues in the recording process.

Damn ano ba itong napasok kong trabaho??? 

[KitC]

Uhhh...

1.  Recording Studios start becoming obsolete because Juan delaCruz can set up his own studio at home with a PC and cheap plugins.

That's why it's up to us, who supposedly know better, to help them. Like I said, think outside the box.

2.  People download mp3s hence the CD format will start to die.  And people don't care about the subtle flutter in the treble for low bitrate mp3s.  Hence lowering the bar for fidelity issues in the recording process.


MP3s are like the ubiquitous cassettes of the day. Audiophiles started clamoring for better fidelity so they came up with chromium tapes and soon after that, metal. Digital is marching forward with 1-bit sampling (DSD) and DVD-audio, and other (maybe better) compression codecs that retain a lot more information. Go with the flow if you want to survive, but retain the best of the past if you want to be innovative.

[alroyT]

Admittedly, I am still quite biased towards Line 6.  But not as bad as some 5 years ago.  I even looked at some oscilloscope signals posted on the net to see how the old Bean PODs performed against real miked up amps. 

Since you mentioned Shure, how many people use an Audix i5 over an SM57 for snare drums and guitar speakers?  I've heard from some experienced people that the i5 has a better tailored response than an SM57.  Only that, the SM57 is the industry standard in those applications.  If I were engineering for some producer, I would bet they would point me at the 57 first because had I offered him an i5, there would be more explaining needed (hence more studio time wasted). 

Better is subjective,have u considered the fact that sm57's acid test does not only comprise on how good it sounds?I was a roadie for a band eons ago and i can assure you those buggers are the sturdiest mics ive ever seen.You can douse a liter of vodka and theyd still be running.You drop them on the floor and you can barely hear a thump,now thats quiet handling for u.Bands like U2,van Halen and other bands thats been on the road forever rely their lives on these.Thats why their #1,its not marketing.

[alroyT]

I hope my point gets across, but when something new AND GREAT comes out, the first problem is toppling a trend.  Line 6 was able to do that because I've seen, read, and *laughed at* their very old ads way back some 6 years ago.  My ears didn't tell me the soundclips sound right.  As an example, a friend of mine and a beloved luthier, gets a lot of ridiculous comments regarding Line 6.  Some client of his says, "Ang ganda ng AC30 pala!....Nasubukan ko kasi sa POD."  Whereas Arie, says, "I've tried a Vox AC30 reissue with Blue Alnico Speakers myself yet I cannot even claim it sounds like an original Vox."  Do you think Line 6 marketing did not have something to do with that?   Of course it did.  I saw how "brave" they were at making a lot of ridiculous tag lines to sell their products.  It almost made noobs think that owning a modeller is like owning a multitude of amps, for much less.

Anyway, what I've learned, at least, is that if people are happy with their tone, no matter how "sucky" it is for the engineer, tapos na ang usapan. 

Well the fact na natuwa yung client ni Arie sa ganda ng tunog that means the product has done its job,whether the guy has no idea what a real ac30 sounds like.You match an amp's tone against a POD using an oscilliscope?What the hell for?You think all tube amps sound great?Yung ginamit ba na amp sa test ay yung tweed amp ni EC?That's a biased test right from the start.You can use a stethoscope or a microscope and be OC about it but at the end of the day its yer freakin EAR whos gonna decide if you'll take that lithium pill thats been staring at you all day(figure of speech ok,relax).

[skunkyfunk]

Better is subjective,have u considered the fact that sm57's acid test does not only comprise on how good it sounds?I was a roadie for a band eons ago and i can assure you those buggers are the sturdiest mics ive ever seen.You can douse a liter of vodka and theyd still be running.You drop them on the floor and you can barely hear a thump,now thats quiet handling for u.Bands like U2,van Halen and other bands thats been on the road forever rely their lives on these.Thats why their #1,its not marketing.

Man I have nothing against the 57.  It is a workhorse and as I said I am not surprised that it is the industry standard.  But what I am saying is, don't we think there is something BETTER than the 57 that we fail to look at because mic company X has no ability to market their products even if they made a mic BETTER and sturdier than the SM57?  It is pretty similar how Michael V's TV commercials helped out Joy Dishwashing liquid outsell Axion Dishwashing Paste.  (Pardon if you don't see this on US TV but you get the point.)

The funny thing about mics though... they always use these classic mics as benchmarks to describe the performance.  "It's a U87 with more top end."  "It's like an SM57 with more lower mids."  It's one way of marketing the competition unknowingly. 

[skunkyfunk]

Well the fact na natuwa yung client ni Arie sa ganda ng tunog that means the product has done its job,whether the guy has no idea what a real ac30 sounds like.You match an amp's tone against a POD using an oscilliscope?What the hell for?You think all tube amps sound great?Yung ginamit ba na amp sa test ay yung tweed amp ni EC?That's a biased test right from the start.You can use a stethoscope or a microscope and be OC about it but at the end of the day its yer freakin EAR whos gonna decide if you'll take that lithium pill thats been staring at you all day(figure of speech ok,relax).

I used my ears right from the start bro.  The soundclips from the official site way back was what held me back from liking the POD.  A lot of users post their POD recordings.  Not impressed. 

But the lesson learned here (from a studio engineer's perspective) is that you cannot stop anyone from liking something that you hate because it is all a matter of taste and personal satisfaction.  But whenever I do recordings, I never fail to give the artists more options that they never thought of.  It is them who decides, not me.

Anyway, regarding the AC30 analogy, my whole point in saying so is that some marketing methods can impair proper judgment in many of us.  We're all guilty of that to some extent.  How come parents treat their children to fastfood when in fact they are supposed to steer them away from unhealthy food?  My son always dances to Jollibee ads, and I admit that I do love some of the food in their menu, but we should always keep in mind to let them eat the right food... vegetables, fish and fresh meat.   

In other words, I am not here to be pro-POD, or anti-POD.  I am here to tell clients to know their differences and use what inspires them the most. 

[alroyT]

Man I have nothing against the 57.  It is a workhorse and as I said I am not surprised that it is the industry standard.  But what I am saying is, don't we think there is something BETTER than the 57 that we fail to look at because mic company X has no ability to market their products even if they made a mic BETTER and sturdier than the SM57?  It is pretty similar how Michael V's TV commercials helped out Joy Dishwashing liquid outsell Axion Dishwashing Paste.  (Pardon if you don't see this on US TV but you get the point.)

The funny thing about mics though... they always use these classic mics as benchmarks to describe the performance.  "It's a U87 with more top end."  "It's like an SM57 with more lower mids."  It's one way of marketing the competition unknowingly. 

skunk i get your point,but my thing is if i'm a struggling musician sympre mag research muna ako kung ano talagang equipments out there na tatagal sa akin.ergo mag tatanung ako sa capwa ko musician and of course a more experienced musician who's been out there would recommend something thats been tried and tested like the sm57.If i have $50 out for a mic would I dare to experiment?Id buy a used 57 and  have enuff change for a happy meal.Thats micro marketing for Shure.

[micr0chimp]

Ganyang-ganyan ang pakiramdam ko pag nakakakita ako ng magandang babae sa tv o pelikula.  She can do a whole lot better than the man she's with...di lang nya ako kilala. 

[smashing_kalabasa]

nice read, astig ng mga opinions na binibigay ng lahat...

if i may add.. as an ordinary working class musician who doesn't know much
about the techie stuff, all i have to rely on when going inside the studio, syempre, my feel for the tone presented to me.. When i was recording for an album way back 97, i had a dual rectifier, twin reverb and a small marshal tube amp to play with... listening to the tracks i recorded, well, maybe because i wasn't that experienced at that time (not that i am that good now) i know i could have done better. i don't know much about amps as well but when i crank up my early U2 playlist, i listen to the edge's tale of vox amps and trusty old strats and stuff.. am i damned because i haven't tried the real thing? i don't think so... so when i whip up an edge inspired setting on the pod, badtrip ba ako dahil di naman nya kuha yung totoong tunog? no, coz i know it's something i can tweak and make for my own... a good friend shinji tanaka, a well respected engineer and philmusic member whose studio is fast becoming the go to place to record your next platinum album, has a trusty ole pod.. when i first used the pod, sabi ko, langya, tiwala naman masyado sila dito, pero shinji related to me even raims of sandwich had trouble distinguishing miked tracks and the pod tracks, then ako rin..ayun..

case in point? Ok ang POd..well at least para sakin, so yung original poster, i can advise na ok kumuha ng POD, lekat na wla bang country represenatative ang pod dito dapat mag painum na yan..hehehe

To me, whether u use pod or miked tube amps, it all depends on how it will fit well in the total mix..minsan kahit basura ang tunog pero tama ang pagka layer, or it hit a freaking nerve that goes well with the overall tracks, i mean everything on the mix, ok lang. i can cite examples from my own recording pero WAG na dahil baka pagtawanan lang ako ng mga maestro dito..

my point is, and i don't know if im stil in the right path or topic of discussion is that dapat wholisitic ang approach mo sa pag kuha ng tone, whether u freaking DI it, mic it, POD it, it should be done in a way it will collide with other tracks as well.. this way, we won't be missing the forest coz we are to busy examining the trees...

sorry if i strayed away from the topic of discussion. moderators please punish me with a case of san mig lite and a platter of mani.. =)

[micr0chimp]

Great post. 

[KitC]

You're too modest, Terence.

@microchimp - tukayo! pang Anything Goes ang post mo ah. hehe

I used my ears right from the start bro.  The soundclips from the official site way back was what held me back from liking the POD.  A lot of users post their POD recordings.  Not impressed.

The thing is, there are users... and then there are USERS. It's a sad fact that not many can fully utilize gear to their best extent, or maybe even some bedroom recordists just try to capture their music with a pod and a 'blaster, and just post it to be happy. You're putting things too much under the microscope and not sharing with another person's joy in his music, kinda like not seeing the forest because of the trees.

Another thing, you developed a bias to the pod by listening to soundclips posted what? 5 years ago? Imagine the resolution on those files way back then just so you can download them.

But the lesson learned here (from a studio engineer's perspective) is that you cannot stop anyone from liking something that you hate because it is all a matter of taste and personal satisfaction.  But whenever I do recordings, I never fail to give the artists more options that they never thought of.  It is them who decides, not me.

Unless you can start being objective about a person's gear, you will never be able to mix his music properly because it's really all about the music and nothing less. If a client comes in with a pod or some other ampsim, and delivers a downright fiery performance, will you be able to step up to the plate and mix it well? Regardless of your preferences? Think wisely, Dodj. (OTOH, I will admit to a certain deference with polka... if a client comes in with a smashing polka composition, I'll refer him to jepoy or marvinq right away!  Polka is my kryptonite.  )

Anyway, regarding the AC30 analogy, my whole point in saying so is that some marketing methods can impair proper judgment in many of us.

You can't blame Line6 for their marketing. They did come up with a product that has lasted through the years, but it wasn't easy to begin with. They took their Axyss and Flextone technology and packaged it in a neat case. If it were crap, I doubt it would have lasted any longer than it has. As for impaired judgement, that's kinda striking a low blow to the people who use a particular product. Like if I decide to use Colgate because I see it on tv often, does that impair my judgement?

But still, it's always a case of caveat emptor, let the buyer beware. The buyers will decide if an ampsim is worth it and time will tell if a product is worthy of being a hit. As for now, though, it seems the PODs are. (look on the bright side, at least it doesn't explode or catch fire like some cellphones and laptops, though I have a nagging feeling that you wish it did)

Peace!

[Al_Librero]

It's a sad fact that not many can fully utilize gear to their best extent, or maybe even some bedroom recordists just try to capture their music with a pod and a 'blaster, and just post it to be happy.

What the.... hey, I'm one of those! Now I'm sad... 

[KitC]

What the.... hey, I'm one of those! Now I'm sad... 

Haha! I heard your work, Al! (from the good ol' yupank jam days) No need to be sad. You should read about that EM article where someone just used Garageband for an EP. Talk about bittersweet! But that EP sure has piqued my interest.

[x_taxi]

Haha! I heard your work, Al! (from the good ol' yupank jam days) No need to be sad. You should read about that EM article where someone just used Garageband for an EP. Talk about bittersweet! But that EP sure has piqued my interest.

ok naman garageband ah.  so much easier to use than logic.  haha.  it's kinda depressin how i can't even figure out to create a VI in logic.  but then again i better read the manual.

 

[alroyT]

Wait wait,I have garageband in my iBook together w/ that digitizer input thingy.Can I use that in conjuction w/ FL7 XXL?Can I squeeze out any potential w/ that software?.KitC?Anyone?I really haven't explored it.

[starfugger]

re dodjies post about mp3 and data loss:

technology is bound to get better.  basta maganda ang pagkakarecord ng track maganda parin lalabas kahit dumaan sa data compression.  ang mga tracks na apektado masyado ng data compression yung nirecord using lossy formats.  based on experience, tracks i recorded on the vs840 kinda sucked when moved into the mp3 realm.  but with 24/88.2 khz project rates, hindi na masyadong issue yon.  pansin ko pa nga sa commercial releases, mas maganda pa ang tunog kahit mp3 compared to some of my old WAV files 

re the pod xt:

skunk, diba nag a/b ka kay shinji?  the randall vs. the POD XT.  you may post the raw soundclips (sans processing) to drive home your point.

[xjepoyx]

The funny thing about mics though... they always use these classic mics as benchmarks to describe the performance.  "It's a U87 with more top end."  "It's like an SM57 with more lower mids."  It's one way of marketing the competition unknowingly. 

Clients such as Big Record Label or TV Stations just looks for a U87 in a studio. Why? because of the name only nothing more nothing less! They dont care if you can produce the sounds they want even without a U87 they just want a studio with a U87. Even ask Shinji or any Studio owner with a U87

[skunkyfunk]

re the pod xt:

skunk, diba nag a/b ka kay shinji?  the randall vs. the POD XT.  you may post the raw soundclips (sans processing) to drive home your point.

I have been thinking about posting the mp3 with the pod and amp tracks panned hard left and right.  But there are some flaws in the test.  We used the wrong amp model for the PODXT.  At first I really wanted the Plexi patch on but at first glance, it appeared that the JCM800 model sounded closer to the Randall's Plexi Module.  So now there are compression issues in the sound (I mean, those nuances that you hear when the guitar's volume is rolled back and forth). 

Shinji was right... to get a REAL A/B test, you must get the real amp and the POD to sound the same right from the start,  and the amp models and the cabs must be similar.  And then, the mic modelling on the pod should also match the mic setup of the amp.  And admittedly, Shinji EQ's the signal coming from the amp mics before they hit the disks to compensate for proximity effect. Maybe we just needed more time.  Alex said he can provide maybe a good number of amps for A/B on December 30.

[x_taxi]

re dodjies post about mp3 and data loss:

technology is bound to get better.  basta maganda ang pagkakarecord ng track maganda parin lalabas kahit dumaan sa data compression.  ang mga tracks na apektado masyado ng data compression yung nirecord using lossy formats.  based on experience, tracks i recorded on the vs840 kinda sucked when moved into the mp3 realm.  but with 24/88.2 khz project rates, hindi na masyadong issue yon.  pansin ko pa nga sa commercial releases, mas maganda pa ang tunog kahit mp3 compared to some of my old WAV files 

it's been a habit of mine to actually compress to mp3 to hear how it converts.  wish someone would come up with a free plugin in vst form to emulate mp3 compression.  that'd be sweet.

 

[skunkyfunk]

Clients such as Big Record Label or TV Stations just looks for a U87 in a studio. Why? because of the name only nothing more nothing less! They dont care if you can produce the sounds they want even without a U87 they just want a studio with a U87. Even ask Shinji or any Studio owner with a U87

Yes and I agree to that.  This is nothing more than the name game.  The thing is, it would be nice to have a U87, 414, C12, U47, TLM103, R121 and all those classic mics in your mic cabinet, and in addition have other alternative mics (both known and unknown) for more variety.  But I'm pretty sure those mics I mentioned can really make a buzz for the studio.  And in that case, a studio owner has to spend like another P1M for those mics... 

[starfugger]

from memory, i liked the pod xt clips more than the randall clips rightout of the box ... which isn't to say the randall recording sucked.  it just needed to be processed to have a figting chance.  it took a long time for you guys to set up the amp, mic the amp, etc ... but only a couple of minutes to plug into the POD and dial in a setting and the outcome still veered in favor of the POD. in fairness though, i think the randall would have sounded A LOT better given more setup time.  but given more setup time with the POD too, will there be a night and day difference between the two?  i heard your amp inside the tracking room and you kinda gave the the thumbs up to jepoy re the mic position, which made us assume you were getting a more or less a faithful if not pleasant sound from the amp.  yet the results favored the POD.  

we could go on and on about the fletcher munson curve and how much it fools people into thinking an amp and an amp sim sounds alike ... but in that particular situation the amp sim kikcked the amp's butt.  this is not to say that the amp wont kick the amp sim's butt some other time ... say december 30 ...

my point is maybe Line 6 has the right to sell their product the way they do.  afterall,  the POD did deliver good results for all to see during that particular a/b test. 

[starfugger]

it's been a habit of mine to actually compress to mp3 to hear how it converts.  wish someone would come up with a free plugin in vst form to emulate mp3 compression.  that'd be sweet.

 

hey that's a great idea!

[starfugger]

Shinji was right... to get a REAL A/B test, you must get the real amp and the POD to sound the same right from the start,  and the amp models and the cabs must be similar.  And then, the mic modelling on the pod should also match the mic setup of the amp. 

dapat naman talaga ganon e.  bakit mo dinala yang pagkabigat bigat mong amp sa studio kung hindi mo naisip tong mga bagay na to beforehand?  you brought that amp to a/b right?  sana niresearch mo na din kung anong gagamitin mong preset sa POD since you were so keen on proving your point. 

[xjepoyx]

it's been a habit of mine to actually compress to mp3 to hear how it converts.  wish someone would come up with a free plugin in vst form to emulate mp3 compression.  that'd be sweet.

 

hintayin ko rin yun! hehe


15 pages more...