The Fletcher-Munson Effect (& why the big divide among guitar modellers vs.amps)

[BAMF]

After 9-7-07,

I'm walking the talk.

http://talk.philmusic.com/board/index.php/topic,61296.0.html

[deltaslim]

btw, skunky, isn't this whole "modeler vs. tube amp for recording" debate kyna pointless when you settle on 'inspiration' as the reason why guitarists should use tube amps vs. modelers in a studio?  it's like throwing a very subjective variable like "love" into a mathematical formula.  i was hoping you geeks stick to the tech-talk and let ignorant romantics like me say, "At the end of the day, kanya kanya lang yan!" 

[skunkyfunk]

btw, skunky, isn't this whole "modeler vs. tube amp for recording" debate kyna pointless when you settle on 'inspiration' as the reason why guitarists should use tube amps vs. modelers in a studio?  it's like throwing a very subjective variable like "love" into a mathematical formula.  i was hoping you geeks stick to the tech-talk and let ignorant romantics like me say, "At the end of the day, kanya kanya lang yan!" 

I just said there is a difference, and the difference matters to some, and to others it may be killing an ant with a sledge hammer so he uses a POD or anything of similar application. 

It's just that some haven't experienced the difference yet through A/Bing.  Opo, kanya-kanya lang yan just like how we have different religions, but sometimes, you got to explain "kung bakit para sa akin, ganito ang pananampalataya ko..."

I just want to cry out loud for the people who have come to me na tinikom ang bibig ng engineer na sinabi ok lang ang POD kung amp ang hinahanap niya.  (And for the case of drummers, drum replacement by force when they wanted effective miking and tuning.)

Delta, since may experience ka naman sa PODXT and Tonelab, are you honest enough to say there is no difference?  And that the difference does not affect you at all? 

If you watch the Bogner/Line 6 interview with Reinhold, it is very implicitly stated there that there is a difference between digital emulations and tubes.  Kaya nga "the ultimate [marriage]..." 

Now going back to your "love" as part of a mathematical formula, in all honesty, YES IT IS PART OF THE EQUATION, BY A HUGE AMOUNT.  Why?  Because artists want to be involved in the art they make, and sometimes, when engineers force them to do things they do not want (knowing some Pinoys are very shy by nature) they can feel manipulated into using something that really can't do the job.  I would gladly give a guitarplayer a DI box and software or maybe a POD if that is what he reallywants and really needs, but not to steer him away from using an amp if that is what the production calls for.  Have you tried using guitar feedback at different angles with a POD?  Have you tried pinch harmonics with a POD?  And in most cases so far, majority still prefer the amp.  Maybe because I own a modular amp which technically, is a modelling amp too, only that you're using real tubes. But at that, I still cannot say my tone palette is as broad so I look forward to the L6 Bogner Spider Valve.

[micr0chimp]

Maybe ignorance really is bliss in the case of music-related equipment.

I STILL like them all. 

And if I think about it, "love" shouldn't be part of the equation because this isn't the guitar/guitarist or the musicians-are-us forum.  It's the Audio Scientists' forum.  Technical specifications not technique preference.  EQ curves and transparency issues instead of song structure and musical improvisation.  Objectivity (or as close to it as possible) and Technicality.  That sort of thing

But it might not be as fun.

Ultimately, guitar playing and guitar amps and guitars are such a small part of the Music Technology & Pro Audio Science and the Recording Art.  So as someone who delves into the recordist's aspect of it, I'd prefer to have both options available so we can move on to...

Recording The Bass Guitar:  Amps Or Direct?

*bili ng popcorn*sits back to watch the fireworks*

[skunkyfunk]

Recording The Bass Guitar:  Amps Or Direct?

*bili ng popcorn*sits back to watch the fireworks*

I've tried both but mixing the bass mics can be a pain in the butt to mix.  However, I think the bass guitar is 80% responsible for the tone.  If you want that Motown slap and your bass is lifeless, forget it.  No amount of direct or amp miking can save that.

On the contrary, crappy guitars can still "compete" when they get masked by distortion and effects.  Bass seems to be more conservative.

[x_taxi]

Maybe ignorance really is bliss in the case of music-related equipment.

yup!  and not havin deep enough pockets to buy those boutique amps, which we are tempted to, and most likely buy, if we got the funds.

 

[KitC]

I wish I had deep enough pockets, but nooooooo.... so I make do with what I have and if I can't make my equipment jump through hoops, then I'm in the wrong business. It's nice to dream and pine for those equipment that make me drool, but until I can't make good music with whatever's on hand, I won't make good music at all with more expensive equipment.

<tukayo! how about some brewski with the popcorn? Vince can bring the wine and cheese... hehe  >

[deltaslim]

Delta, since may experience ka naman sa PODXT and Tonelab, are you honest enough to say there is no difference?  And that the difference does not affect you at all? 

Yes there is a difference cuz, as I've been saying, they are apples and oranges.  Use the tool that does the job cost-effectively. 

If you're just referring to pure tone: yes, there is a difference and my findings have been different at different situations for different PODs and amps.  There's one time I hated my POD2 cuz it didn't sound good through the PA in a live rehearsal situation.  But it sounded great and better than I could ever make my tube amps sound for a PC recording.  The XTL sounded ok at home through the TM60s power section. It sounded so-so, live.  But again, it sounded great for recording.  The Tonelab sounded ok for recording but it sounded better through the power section of the TM60.  More importantly, it sounded better live in a gig when I used it.  In fact, I think it sounded better than my tube amp if I had brought one.  At least, I'm sure it sounded better than the other amps at the venue (Purple Haze). Very natural, tube-like, even.  But that's not the point; it sounded good, period. If you need a testimonial from other people who heard, let me know.

Now going back to your "love" as part of a mathematical formula, in all honesty, YES IT IS PART OF THE EQUATION, BY A HUGE AMOUNT.  Why?  Because artists want to be involved in the art they make, and sometimes, when engineers force them to do things they do not want (knowing some Pinoys are very shy by nature) they can feel manipulated into using something that really can't do the job.  I would gladly give a guitarplayer a DI box and software or maybe a POD if that is what he reallywants and really needs, but not to steer him away from using an amp if that is what the production calls for.  Have you tried using guitar feedback at different angles with a POD?  Have you tried pinch harmonics with a POD?  And in most cases so far, majority still prefer the amp.  Maybe because I own a modular amp which technically, is a modelling amp too, only that you're using real tubes. But at that, I still cannot say my tone palette is as broad so I look forward to the L6 Bogner Spider Valve.

I was lazy to type and explain my point; I was half-expecting you'd miss it, and you did. 

The point is I expect you sound engineers to argumentatively discuss these things in technical terms.  In short 'hard' stuff.  When the discussion suddenly turns to 'soft' stuff, it gets a little fuzzy and the logical reasoning kyna falls through the cracks, you know?  Why not make the assumption, for the sake of moving the discussion forward, that the artist is inspired, or is at a certain level of inspiration, regardless whether POD or tube is used, and then discuss the differences in objective terms?

BTW, it's funny you have to remind me (by shouting pa ha) that love and inspiration is part of the equation of making music...   

[KitC]

discuss the differences in objective terms?

That is in such short supply nowadays, Joric. I chalk it up to too much or too little coffee for some. That's why I drink tea instead.... 

[skunkyfunk]

That is in such short supply nowadays, Joric. I chalk i up to too much or too little coffee for some. That's why I drink tea instead.... 

Sir, what can't be more objective than saying:

1.  Amps have different volume capabilities.
2.  PODs and amp sims work on the same domain of loudness of a particular monitoring scenario.
3.  Tube amps have more mystical finger response compared to SS and digital.  (This is not relative.  Many players agree that tube amps have a very different response compared to digital amp sims.  The more relative factor though, is how a guitar player prefers a certain type of finger-response.)
4.  Amps are expensive and PODs are the cheaper alternative.
5.  Miking an amp can be a pain in the butt.
6.  PODs are easier to work with because most are either in a hurry or lazy.
7.  Engineers like working on tracks with less bleed.  (Let's not deny this fact.)
8.  Amps can disturb the neighbors.
9.  PODs cannot disturb the neighbors unless you're using it through large speakers.
10.  Objectivity necessitates ruling out biases.  But how can you say one is being objective if they do not know what different clients are biased about?

Bottomline is, I understand that with digital technology, we are blessed with more tools for recording.  We should also thank cheap Chinese labor as well because we cannot have good mics for cheap if not for them.  But what we should bear in mind is that the cheaper alternatives are not direct replacements for their counterparts.  That is where the confusion stems from.  I have an ADK Hamburg myself, that some say is a very good U87 clone.  I haven't heard the U87 vs Hamburg tracks from Shinji myself, but does that make me think it should be a direct replacement for the U87?  No.  Can it outperform the U87?  Not necessarily.  But what is it that people like about the U87 for recording?  It is the fact that it is a classic mic that many famous singers have sang to.  Now whether you can make a close copy to the U87 doesn't mean you're getting a real u87.

[skunkyfunk]

Why not make the assumption, for the sake of moving the discussion forward, that the artist is inspired, or is at a certain level of inspiration, regardless whether POD or tube is used, and then discuss the differences in objective terms?

I cannot really make an assumption that one can be inspired if he's not happy with the tone coming out of the monitors or amp.  To rephrase that, my goal as an engineer is give the artist options and make him decide what will make him inspired. 

[KitC]

I like reading the dictionary sometimes...

ob·fus·cate      /ˈɒbfəˌskeɪt, ɒbˈfʌskeɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ob-fuh-skeyt, ob-fuhs-keyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object), -cat·ed, -cat·ing.

1.   to confuse, bewilder, or stupefy.
2.   to make obscure or unclear: to obfuscate a problem with extraneous information.
3.   to darken.


Obfuscation is part of the problem in some areas of our lives... aside from coffee.

[x_taxi]

Obfuscation is part of the problem in some areas of our lives... aside from coffee.

nice point kit!

slightly OT:  speakin of coffee, you might need this => Arabian Mocha Sanani by Starbucks!



pretty good stuff.  if you like em strong.

 

[polar]

Yun oh... napunata naman sa kape!
Sarap.

[KitC]

nice point kit!

slightly OT:  speakin of coffee, you might need this => Arabian Mocha Sanani by Starbucks!

pretty good stuff.  if you like em strong.

 

Obfuscating the issue by confusing me with coffee... but I like my mocha! 

EDIT: Vince, last time I drank strong coffee, I didn't get to sleep for the entire night! But thanks for the tip! I think I'm gonna borrow my nephew's espresso machine, or maybe fire up the ol' percolator. 

[alroyT]

For the love of God!

[micr0chimp]

Hahahahahaha!  I should start reading the dictionary.  Parang sapul e.   

Masarap nga mag kape minsan.

[abyssinianson]

Mother of God...i didn't look at this thread because I thought it was a theoretical discussion, turns out it wasn't. Kit, where is that pop corn?

But seriously, if the job of an engineer is to provide options and you have options to do the providing then, what is the problem? Have the guy pick an amp, a guitar, a chair, mic your amp, monitor, repeat tweaking if necessary. The way I see it, the problem should focus on the actual usage of the stuff you DO have access to instead of doing a rhetorical analysis of whether or not it is subjectively sound to say a tube amp is better than a ss digital amp. Got both? Use em. Don't got 'em? use what you got. Tubes aren't going anywhere and neither are digital amps because someone, somewhere is going to use them for some song in some record. In fact, I don't really think using one over the other makes a mountain of a difference if the result rocks, sells records and gets a happy client in the end.

[alroyT]

The timbre is ok for the most part, but they feel a tad too flat or 1-D for a lack of a better term.  Parang masyadong plateau yung dinig ko sa dynamics.  The blues patches sounded too processed for me being that blues is all about dynamics.  The cleans were alright, but we can never tell how these patches perform unless we used pedals and see how they respond.  Obviously we cannot crank a POD but we can only simulate a cranked amp.

Something common among all the clips is the reverb seems to mask the flatness.  I A/Bd them with amp tracks and I really cannot hear the dynamics with the POD.  I cranked my monitors to see what I am missing and the POD still seemed too 1-dimensional.

Also, the presence is not there when I boost the volume.  What I noticed with real miked-amp tracks is that they can sound a bit muddy at first, but when you mix with a band the mud goes away and the mids stay well in the mix UNEQ'd.  Add a tad more highs then you're fine.  As for the POD tracks, there seems to be  a cutoff somewhere in the presence frequencies. 

The tracks definitely sound tubeLIKE,and I trust my ears.The clips are a tad bit on the compressed side but who cares?And yes the guy seems inspired when he recorded those clips  .I remember Dimebag was inspired when he recorded Cowboys from Hell album with a SS Randall amp.You know what's inspiring than a glowing EL34?Groupies!

[deltaslim]

I like reading the dictionary sometimes...

ob·fus·cate      /ˈɒbfəˌskeɪt, ɒbˈfʌskeɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ob-fuh-skeyt, ob-fuhs-keyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object), -cat·ed, -cat·ing.

1.   to confuse, bewilder, or stupefy.
2.   to make obscure or unclear: to obfuscate a problem with extraneous information.
3.   to darken.


Obfuscation is part of the problem in some areas of our lives... aside from coffee.

Haha... obfuscation!  Right on the nose, KitC. 

The last time I used that word was to call out a colleague at work who couldn't seem to argue intelligibly with me.  Maybe I had too much coffee and the dangerously high caffeine levels make you use highfalutin words. LOL!


But yeah, we need more edification, less obfuscation! 

[deltaslim]

The tracks definitely sound tubeLIKE,and I trust my ears.The clips are a tad bit on the compressed side but who cares?And yes the guy seems inspired when he recorded those clips  .I remember Dimebag was inspired when he recorded Cowboys from Hell album with a SS Randall amp.

Thanks for sharing yours, Alroy. I'm not too hip on the technical aspects of recording but I do use my ears as a guide so my assessment would be very analog: "sounds great", "sounds ok", "ugh!".  ganun!

OT:  don't know if i told you, i slapped a pair of Harmonic Design S90s on your '69 Tele Thinline. used it for slide but eventually found SGs better for slide so I sold the Tele to Diego of Sandwhich. Naka ilang MTV and televised concerts na ung Tele mo/natin!  and one small trivia: there was another seller i used to visit in the novaliches/lagro area in the early/mid 90s.  i didn't remember her name but it turns out it was "starfugger"!!!  grabe, small world!

You know what's inspiring than a glowing EL34?Groupies!

Or a nice bunch of pretty waitresses like at RJTV last night.  Wonder if RJ handpick 'em hisself. 

[abyssinianson]

Thanks for sharing yours, Alroy. I'm not too hip on the technical aspects of recording but I do use my ears as a guide so my assessment would be very analog: "sounds great", "sounds ok", "ugh!".  ganun!

OT:  don't know if i told you, i slapped a pair of Harmonic Design S90s on your '69 Tele Thinline. used it for slide but eventually found SGs better for slide so I sold the Tele to Diego of Sandwhich. Naka ilang MTV and televised concerts na ung Tele mo/natin!  and one small trivia: there was another seller i used to visit in the novaliches/lagro area in the early/mid 90s.  i didn't remember her name but it turns out it was "starfugger"!!!  grabe, small world!


Or a nice bunch of pretty waitresses like at RJTV last night.  Wonder if RJ handpick 'em hisself. 

delta, i saw your gig on youtube, man. nice slide tone! i love the tele sound myself but humbuckers do sound beefier for that slide sound with swagger like the Black Crowes in "Twice As Hard."

[skunkyfunk]

SO what is Delta's point?  Tatagalugin ko na, para bang nanlilito ako?  O di kaya ang tunay na katotohanan, ay nakakalito talaga ang dulot ng teknolohiya sa atin?  Marami akong kilala na nagsasabi na "ang ganda ng tunog ng Hammond Organ" kasi nakasubok sila ng NI B4.  Ako naman, nakasubok na magrecord ng Hammond Organ sa simbahan, at sabi ko talagang maganda ang Hammond Organ, pero ang B4 ang pinakamalapit na "recorded tone" ng Hammond B3.  Pero hindi lang siya 400lbs.  Pero kung ako tatanungin, iba ang experience ng paggamit ng Hammond Organ.  It is the voice of God ika nga...

I am just mentioning the fact that when artists step into a recording studio, they want to feel inspired.  Maybe the best piece of equipment that the production calls for does not lie around the studio.  Now, if the producer is really that serious, he should be able to outsource the stuff needed for the project.  If there is a budget constraint, then exhaust all options.  Not the typical template that "there's a POD, so why bother?" 

Regarding Dimebag using Randall SS amps, he was very clear about what he wanted.  It was that SS tone that he got from the Randall RG100 (AFAIK).  That was what he wanted and I cannot discount that he had tried other amps alongside to find his tone. Albert King used a SS amp.  (Which ironically SRV wanted to cop using his rigs).  What I do notice about tube snobs is that they always use these people as examples to say that you don't need a tube amp.  Heck, we all know that.  The next question is why did they choose SS?  And the answer to that is simple... They chose them over a bunch of other stuff.

Delta seemed to have mangled this discussion into an "inspiration in a recording" type of thread.  The title says that the Fletcher Munson phenomenon is a manifestation of why some guitarplayers prefer amps, and why they prefer them in a recording. 

Tutal, Delta seems to like putting me on the spot and trying to speak for everyone, I'm gonna ask a few more questions for him.

[deltaslim]

delta, i saw your gig on youtube, man. nice slide tone! i love the tele sound myself but humbuckers do sound beefier for that slide sound with swagger like the Black Crowes in "Twice As Hard."

hey, tnx abyss!  pero you know what?  that kind of tone, kaya replicate sa POD/modeller!  pramis!  it was more of an accident how i got that tone.  i'd liked it to be a bit middy and a tad dirtier (live band, big stage...), pero anytime i can get clear sustaining notes out there, i'm happy. 

[deltaslim]

SO what is Delta's point?  Tatagalugin ko na, para bang nanlilito ako? 

Simple lang ang punto at sinabi ko na sa taas.  Di ko magets ang punto ng discussion kung moving target ang issue.  Una FM, then FM in live vs recording situations, then POD vs. modeller, tapos napunta ka sa "necessary ang tube amp sa studio for inspiration which you can't get out of a POD." What is YOUR point?

O di kaya ang tunay na katotohanan, ay nakakalito talaga ang dulot ng teknolohiya sa atin? 

Don't blame technology, it can't defend itself.  Humans try to make sense of the world.  Sometimes we don't succeed.  Nagpupunta ako rito para matuto, pero minsan mas naguguluhan ako!

Delta seemed to have mangled this discussion into an "inspiration in a recording" type of thread. 

See above.  You are the one who dragged this 'inspiration' issue into the equation and mangled it.  Before that, it could have been a scientific problem.  Then it became a metaphysical problem.  If I'm going to record, I don't want my sound engineer to talk metaphysics. 

Tutal, Delta seems to like putting me on the spot...

You actually feel like you're on the spot?  What on earth for?  Posting behind a keyboard and you feel on the spot?   Don't know how you say I put you on the spot; you seem to do a fine job by yourself. 

...and trying to speak for everyone,

Hmmm... don't know how you came up with that either. About 99% of the people in this Music Tech & Pro Audio board are smarter and more knowledgeable than me and I can't profess to speak for any of them.  They're smart adults -- they speak for themselves.  I'm no engineer but I'd like to hear them engineers talk like engineers instead of philosophers.

I'm gonna ask a few more questions for him.

More questions?  For moi?!  Mapagkakamalan ka na namang clone ng best pren mo nyan!  I suggest you keep em to yourself or address to the rest who are more knowledgeable than I am.  You'll get smarter answers to all of your questions.  Oh wait, I remembered -- all your questions are rhetorical cuz you know all the answers already!