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Author Topic: The Fletcher-Munson Effect (& why the big divide among guitar modellers vs.amps)  (Read 29586 times)

Offline moHaWk

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more popcorn please
wag mo problemahin ang problema, hayaan mong problema mamroblema sayo!!!!!

Pag ang lason ba na-expire lason parin?

Offline alroyT

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Re: The Fletcher-Munson Effect (& why the big divide among guitar modellers vs.a
« Reply #176 on: September 14, 2007, 07:58:34 AM »
Thanks for sharing yours, Alroy. I'm not too hip on the technical aspects of recording but I do use my ears as a guide so my assessment would be very analog: "sounds great", "sounds ok", "ugh!".  ganun!

OT:  don't know if i told you, i slapped a pair of Harmonic Design S90s on your '69 Tele Thinline. used it for slide but eventually found SGs better for slide so I sold the Tele to Diego of Sandwhich. Naka ilang MTV and televised concerts na ung Tele mo/natin!  and one small trivia: there was another seller i used to visit in the novaliches/lagro area in the early/mid 90s.  i didn't remember her name but it turns out it was "starfugger"!!!  grabe, small world!


Or a nice bunch of pretty waitresses like at RJTV last night.  Wonder if RJ handpick 'em hisself.  ;-)


Yeah I'm still kicking myself for selling it,that tele was purportedly used by Hiram Bullock a jazz sessionist who used to jam w/ J.Pastorius.It was owned by Hiram's friend who happens to be my cousin's co-worker.Tho I cant validate my cousin's story i bought the guitar anyway.
I cant remember if it was you who picked up that guitar from my house in novaliches or one of your friends/relatives,I recall that severe jetlag mixed w/ hangover tho.Kapitbahay ko pala dati si starfugger,sa Teresa Heights ako malapit sa church.

Offline alroyT

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I cant believe this thread is still chugging along,of course skunky will always have the last say.His tenacity would have made him a good lawyer even though i could accurately summize he has gone astray from the subject  :-D :-D :-D.
                  Because there WAS never a"Big divide among guitar modellers vs. amp".How could that be if I have both?Nasaan ang division?If there was,who's with you(those who would never use an ampsim) and who's on the other side?I am a Beatle fan,not a Lennon/McCartney fan even though I hate McCartney but loves his music.
The topic was inaccurate,non-existent and should be revised.

Now pls pass that popcorn while I wait for my response to be dissected and refuted.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 08:25:05 AM by alroyT »

Offline deltaslim

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Re: The Fletcher-Munson Effect (& why the big divide among guitar modellers vs.a
« Reply #178 on: September 14, 2007, 09:00:09 AM »
Yeah I'm still kicking myself for selling it,that tele was purportedly used by Hiram Bullock a jazz sessionist who used to jam w/ J.Pastorius.It was owned by Hiram's friend who happens to be my cousin's co-worker.Tho I cant validate my cousin's story i bought the guitar anyway.
I cant remember if it was you who picked up that guitar from my house in novaliches or one of your friends/relatives,I recall that severe jetlag mixed w/ hangover tho.Kapitbahay ko pala dati si starfugger,sa Teresa Heights ako malapit sa church.

WTF!?!  Hiram Bullock?!!  Should have sold it on eBay pala!  :-D

Yeah, only reason I ventured into the Lagro/Novaliches areas is I have HS friend/bandmate who grew up in Teresa Heights who could accompany me.  Kabilang kalye lang.  I picked up the guitar myself pero ung wife mo kausap ko.  Si starfugger naalala ko pa ung gear and layout ng loob ng bahay nila (dati).  Haha! 

Offline alroyT

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Re: The Fletcher-Munson Effect (& why the big divide among guitar modellers vs.a
« Reply #179 on: September 14, 2007, 09:17:37 AM »
WTF!?!  Hiram Bullock?!!  Should have sold it on eBay pala!  :-D

Yeah, only reason I ventured into the Lagro/Novaliches areas is I have HS friend/bandmate who grew up in Teresa Heights who could accompany me.  Kabilang kalye lang.  I picked up the guitar myself pero ung wife mo kausap ko.  Si starfugger naalala ko pa ung gear and layout ng loob ng bahay nila (dati).  Haha! 



Yeah I miss that guitar....and my nephew too.Super OT na to kuya eddie
« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 09:19:16 AM by alroyT »


Offline skunkyfunk

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Re: The Fletcher-Munson Effect (& why the big divide among guitar modellers vs.a
« Reply #180 on: September 14, 2007, 10:16:25 AM »
I cant believe this thread is still chugging along,of course skunky will always have the last say.His tenacity would have made him a good lawyer even though i could accurately summize he has gone astray from the subject  :-D :-D :-D.
                  Because there WAS never a"Big divide among guitar modellers vs. amp".How could that be if I have both?Nasaan ang division?If there was,who's with you(those who would never use an ampsim) and who's on the other side?I am a Beatle fan,not a Lennon/McCartney fan even though I hate McCartney but loves his music.
The topic was inaccurate,non-existent and should be revised.

Now pls pass that popcorn while I wait for my response to be dissected and refuted.

Dude, the "Big Divide" exists among designers of either technology.  Ask Doug Roccaforte, Peter Diezel, Paul Rivera, and Mike Soldano.  These guys have tried to push the boundaries of tube amps to superiority.  And will these guys ever embrace amp sims and digital modelling?  We don't know, but as of now, it's clear that there is still biases among the tube gurus because they don't hear the same harmonic content in digital.  And the mere fact that Line 6 is coming out with a tube amp means something... go figure.

Maybe, the better approach to resolving this thread is, "does the cost of amplifiers and miking them in a studio have a huge difference over using amp sims?"  Because for me, as I always say, I don't have a problem with technology.  Heck, would i be doing multi-track recording now if not for that?  But then again, some of the drawbacks of technology can be rooted to laziness.  In all honesty, who would lug a Rhodes piano to a gig if one has a Korg X50?  Is there a difference to the audience?  To the audience, probably NO.  But to the player, one huge YES most especially if you grew up with a Rhodes.  Now, I have no qualms with convenience most especially if you are a commuter.  But once you step into a studio, you must be willing to stretch yourself, and quite frankly, you have to settle with inconveniences to get the best sounds on record.  So why would I use an X50 if I can use  Rhodes in the studio?  I know a lot of studios that have one.  I honestly think you can't get that "plank" through a Twin Reverb or suitcase perfectly using digital keyboards. Sa madaling salita, masyado nasasanay sa "ok na 'to" mentality ang karamihan dahil sa teknolohiya.

Now, the same thing applies for recording guitar tracks.  Don't let the ease of amp sims fool you into thinking you're getting the same thing.  If a POD patch sounds good, then it sounds good.  But quoting our very own MarvinQ, "Better competes with good."  And what about getting better sounds from an amp?  Don't you think that can enhance a performance?

And last thing, people mention cost-efficiency.  Are you talking about cost-efficiency to record?  A line 6 pocket POD costs $129 and I am sure you can get a lot of sounds from it.  Why rent a studio being under pressure if you can use a home PC and record?  Now that is cost-efficiency.  But when people enter a studio, the assumption there is that the normal recording artist has some needs that his home studio cannot provide, like good room ambience (for drums especially), better mics, and better outboard equipment. 

alroy, it is just that the economic situation in this country has a huge effect on our biases on tone. 
« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 10:39:26 AM by skunkyfunk »

Offline xjepoyx

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1 order of 1 case of beer and a 2 XL peperoni pizza plss :D
good girls go to heaven. bad girls go to my room!  [/i]

Offline skunkyfunk

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Re: The Fletcher-Munson Effect (& why the big divide among guitar modellers vs.a
« Reply #182 on: September 14, 2007, 10:54:44 AM »
Ang dami niyo nang order na pagkain di niyo pa ako inaalok.  Kung wala 'tong thread na 'to, wala kayong kakainin.  :-D

Offline alroyT

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Re: The Fletcher-Munson Effect (& why the big divide among guitar modellers vs.a
« Reply #183 on: September 14, 2007, 10:58:49 AM »
Dude, the "Big Divide" exists among designers of either technology.  Ask Doug Roccaforte, Peter Diezel, Paul Rivera, and Mike Soldano.  These guys have tried to push the boundaries of tube amps to superiority. 
Theyre here with me watching Oprah(more interesting @ this moment),they wouldnt comment coz it bores the hell outta them and I agree.Peter is in my studio playing w/ his Zoom 505  :evil:
« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 11:00:59 AM by alroyT »

Offline skunkyfunk

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Re: The Fletcher-Munson Effect (& why the big divide among guitar modellers vs.a
« Reply #184 on: September 14, 2007, 11:08:31 AM »
Theyre here with me watching Oprah(more interesting @ this moment),they wouldnt comment coz it bores the hell outta them and I agree.Peter is in my studio playing w/ his Zoom 505  :evil:

Tinawagan ako ni Doug ngayon lang sabi niya di raw totoo sinasabi mo.  :-D

Offline alroyT

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Re: The Fletcher-Munson Effect (& why the big divide among guitar modellers vs.a
« Reply #185 on: September 14, 2007, 11:11:28 AM »
Tinawagan ako ni Doug ngayon lang sabi niya di raw totoo sinasabi mo.  :-D
Hndi si Doug yung tumawag sayo,yung driver nya

Offline moHaWk

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e2 po ung pet ko na goat astig diba








AY AKALA KO ABOUT YOUR PETS NA thread! ehehehehehe

sorry :-D
wag mo problemahin ang problema, hayaan mong problema mamroblema sayo!!!!!

Pag ang lason ba na-expire lason parin?

Offline alroyT

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Syet namamaga yung balls

Offline chuck sabbath

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Re: The Fletcher-Munson Effect (& why the big divide among guitar modellers vs.a
« Reply #188 on: September 14, 2007, 11:26:48 AM »
everyone just please admit that only skunky_funk knows anything about anything :roll:

your posts are full of assumptions and opinions that you try to pass off as facts.

as far back as i can remember in these forums, you have always voiced your "rules" and "requirements" for people to measure up to your "guidelines" of acceptability or legitimacy. thats why ive given up on taking you seriously as a credible source of info a looong time ago

"what makes a pro recording engineer" "what makes a serious recording tool" "do you need to do this to be considered serious" "do you need to know this stuff to be that thing" etc etc all worded out as questions but just barely hiding the rigid opinion you have already formulated

many working pros here who i dare say have more experience than you seem to have no trouble accommodating all tastes and preferences for gear, methods etc. they have repeatedly debunked your obsessive "factual" claims. even your threads on harmony central dont get you much support: here,here,here,here,here,and (best one)here

i have to wonder what your point is in all this? to be perceived as some kind of "tone guru/connoisseur?" cause i dont think anyone's feeling it

thread should have been over with this:

Quote from: abyssinianson
Got both? Use em. Don't got 'em? use what you got. Tubes aren't going anywhere and neither are digital amps because someone, somewhere is going to use them for some song in some record
In an expanding universe, time is on the side of the outcast. Those who once inhabited the suburbs of human contempt find that without changing their address they eventually live in the metropolis

Offline skunkyfunk

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Re: The Fletcher-Munson Effect (& why the big divide among guitar modellers vs.a
« Reply #189 on: September 14, 2007, 11:35:28 AM »
everyone just please admit that only skunky_funk knows anything about anything :roll:

your posts are full of assumptions and opinions that you try to pass off as facts.

as far back as i can remember in these forums, you have always voiced your "rules" and "requirements" for people to measure up to your "guidelines" of acceptability or legitimacy. thats why ive given up on taking you seriously as a credible source of info a looong time ago

"what makes a pro recording engineer" "what makes a serious recording tool" "do you need to do this to be considered serious" "do you need to know this stuff to be that thing" etc etc all worded out as questions but just barely hiding the rigid opinion you have already formulated

many working pros here who i dare say have more experience than you seem to have no trouble accommodating all tastes and preferences for gear, methods etc. they have repeatedly debunked your obsessive "factual" claims. even your threads on harmony central dont get you much support: here,here,here,here,here,and (best one)here

i have to wonder what your point is in all this? to be perceived as some kind of "tone guru/connoisseur?" cause i dont think anyone's feeling it

thread should have been over with this:


Ang problema natin sir simple lang... wala pa tayong maproduce na recordings na panlaban sa ibang bansa na hindi POP.  And sa POP, walang problema sa guitar modelling. 

You know, first thing that we all claim is we are sound engineers.  Heck, I just knew I am not one... Because I think marami pa akong dapat malaman.  Hindi madali pagpatunog ng maganda sa iba-ibang musical scenario.  Pero minsan hindi lang natin matanggap na ang problema talaga natin ay ang kakulangan natin sa gamit.  Kaya tayo, pimupuri natin yung POD as if replacement na siya sa lahat ng amps... Hindi man aminin ng mga engineers dito, pero ganoon ang nakikita ko. 

Hindi natin basta-basta puwede bitbitin ang salitang "sound engineer", dahil ang sunod na itatanong sa atin ay "for whom?"  Si Sir Shinji marami nang nagawang recordings pero hindi ako naniniwalang kuntento siya sa kung anuman ang meron siya ngayon, kaya niya pinaganda ang studio niya.  Doesn't that mean something?  We need better tools for the job.  We can have both cheap and expensive tools.  Pero bakit ata pag may isa na mas nakakalamang sa resulta ng may magandang gamit para bang ang sinasabi eh, "uy, kaya ko rin naman patunugin ng ganyan yan using my <place cheap gear here>" 

Tutal chuck raised a lot of HC threads, baka malula kayo sa dami ng puwede ko i-link sa HC.  And I dare you to post your works there and get fireballed.  Let's see how yung mga pinagmamalaki nating trabaho sa recording ay makakakumpetensiya sa ibang bansa.


Offline alroyT

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Re: The Fletcher-Munson Effect (& why the big divide among guitar modellers vs.a
« Reply #190 on: September 14, 2007, 11:47:21 AM »
everyone just please admit that only skunky_funk knows anything about anything :roll:

your posts are full of assumptions and opinions that you try to pass off as facts.

as far back as i can remember in these forums, you have always voiced your "rules" and "requirements" for people to measure up to your "guidelines" of acceptability or legitimacy. thats why ive given up on taking you seriously as a credible source of info a looong time ago

"what makes a pro recording engineer" "what makes a serious recording tool" "do you need to do this to be considered serious" "do you need to know this stuff to be that thing" etc etc all worded out as questions but just barely hiding the rigid opinion you have already formulated

many working pros here who i dare say have more experience than you seem to have no trouble accommodating all tastes and preferences for gear, methods etc. they have repeatedly debunked your obsessive "factual" claims. even your threads on harmony central dont get you much support: here,here,here,here,here,and (best one)here

i have to wonder what your point is in all this? to be perceived as some kind of "tone guru/connoisseur?" cause i dont think anyone's feeling it

thread should have been over with this:

ouch

Offline skunkyfunk

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Re: The Fletcher-Munson Effect (& why the big divide among guitar modellers vs.a
« Reply #191 on: September 14, 2007, 11:49:07 AM »
everyone just please admit that only skunky_funk knows anything about anything :roll:


That's what you think.  Lahat tayo tenga dapat gamitin at karapatan ko sabihin na hindi ata pareho ang tunog ng amp sims at amps.

your posts are full of assumptions and opinions that you try to pass off as facts.

Post them one by one.

as far back as i can remember in these forums, you have always voiced your "rules" and "requirements" for people to measure up to your "guidelines" of acceptability or legitimacy. thats why ive given up on taking you seriously as a credible source of info a looong time ago

"what makes a pro recording engineer" "what makes a serious recording tool" "do you need to do this to be considered serious" "do you need to know this stuff to be that thing" etc etc all worded out as questions but just barely hiding the rigid opinion you have already formulated
Tell that to SAE if you wanna apply as an instructor for recording.  Make your Bedroom genius resume look good.  --- That is  what disheartened me so much.  To be called a sound engineer, kaya mo pumihit sa isang rathole home studio o sa isang malaking studio na may Neve console.  Or Protools HD console. 

many working pros here who i dare say have more experience than you seem to have no trouble accommodating all tastes and preferences for gear, methods etc. they have repeatedly debunked your obsessive "factual" claims. even your threads on harmony central dont get you much support: here,here,here,here,here,and (best one)here

Even HC is full of arguments, but what I learned about them is that they can speak more intelligible things because THEY HAVE MORE EXPERIENCE.  When an engineer says mas maganda ang tunog ng Hammond organ kaysa sa Organ patch sa Korg X5 di ba dapat ako maniwala?  Pero di ko madiscount na maaring "mapeke" ng magaling na sound engineer ang pangit na tunog.  Pero yan ay dahil alam niya ang tunog ng totoong Hammond organ.



i have to wonder what your point is in all this? to be perceived as some kind of "tone guru/connoisseur?" cause i dont think anyone's feeling it

thread should have been over with this:


I have my own preferences as a person, but I don't dictate what I want to clients.  I just give them avenues for the tones they want.  And sadly, in the case of guitars, I feel it is half the effort if I just point them to modelling.  Sorry people that's my job and I don't mind if you crucify me if that's your method but  the clients' ears still tell the story.  Eh kasalanan ko ba kung gusto nila yung amps ko sa studio ko?  Sa totoo lang hindi pa rin ako kuntento sa gamit ko and I need a modeller in the future for "everything else" and the Spider Valve looks promising.

Offline skunkyfunk

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Re: The Fletcher-Munson Effect (& why the big divide among guitar modellers vs.a
« Reply #192 on: September 14, 2007, 11:54:18 AM »
ouch

Dude, that's 1/16th of the comments that you get at Harmony Central.  People there are 5x as relentless as your previous posts.

So now since naging HC ang usapan, bakit di natin i-post mga trabaho natin doon tutal ang claim natin "experienced" ang marami dito?


Hindi kaya yun nga ang problema?  May mga pre-conceptions na tayo kaya mas mahirap umusad ang industriya natin?  We can learn the science of recording but the art and practice is the difficult part.  A monkey can learn to twiddle with knobs, but it cannot feel as we humans do.

Halimbawa, Delta is just one of the "tone is in the fingers" type of people and he thinks a minimalist setup for recording does the job FOR HIM.  Well and good.  But can he speak for all the other players?  What about loud players?  What about those who cannot feel chugs of high gain with modelling?  .
« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 11:59:07 AM by skunkyfunk »

Offline alroyT

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Re: The Fletcher-Munson Effect (& why the big divide among guitar modellers vs.a
« Reply #193 on: September 14, 2007, 11:58:54 AM »
Dude, that's 1/16th of the comments that you get at Harmony Central.  People there are 5x as relentless as your previous posts.

So now since naging HC ang usapan, bakit di natin i-post mga trabaho natin doon tutal ang claim natin "experienced" ang marami dito?


Hindi kaya yun nga ang problema?  May mga pre-conceptions na tayo kaya mas mahirap umusad ang industriya natin?  We can learn the science of recording but the art and practice is the difficult part.  A monkey can learn to twiddle with knobs, but it cannot feel as we humans do.

Halimbawa, Delta is just one of the "tone is in the fingers" type of people and he thinks a minimalist setup for recording does the job FOR HIM.  Well and good.  But can he speak for all the other players?  What about loud players?  What about those who cannot feel chugs of high gain with modelling?  Marami pa akong puwede i-bring-up based on experience.
ouch parin

Offline skunkyfunk

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Re: The Fletcher-Munson Effect (& why the big divide among guitar modellers vs.a
« Reply #194 on: September 14, 2007, 12:01:22 PM »
ouch parin

Ouch talaga because that's reality.  Hindi dahil sinabi mo na ouch.  The proof in the pudding is that we are having difficulty competing with our neighboring countries.  And if you want, you can ask our very own Baldo about what he has to say...

Should we sound engineers wash our hands off of that?  One big No... 

Offline alroyT

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the ouch refers to chuck's comment on u

Offline skunkyfunk

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Re: The Fletcher-Munson Effect (& why the big divide among guitar modellers vs.a
« Reply #196 on: September 14, 2007, 12:06:17 PM »
the ouch refers to chuck's comment on u

Whoever.  MAlamang nasaktan yan nung sinabi ko ano requirements ko para masabi kang sound engineer so he's returning the favor.

Well, we cannot just present our resumes with our bedroom or project studio ingenuities.  To be a sound engineer, you can be thrown out to any studio, big or small.

Offline skunkyfunk

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Re: The Fletcher-Munson Effect (& why the big divide among guitar modellers vs.a
« Reply #197 on: September 14, 2007, 12:08:29 PM »
Isa pa, why is everyone trying to make it appear that I am being anti-POD?  The POD is just a subset of one's tone palette; but the way I look at it, they want to claim it can replace anything.  Sorry but that's how I see it. 


Offline chuck sabbath

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Re: The Fletcher-Munson Effect (& why the big divide among guitar modellers vs.a
« Reply #198 on: September 14, 2007, 12:16:21 PM »
okay now youre trying to make it personal

i never claimed to be any kind of recording engineer. music is not even my primary means of making a living. dont worry im not trying to pass off my bedroom as a "pro studio" or my work as "world class" . im not trying to steal work from the big studios either. i just do what i do and if the client is happy and i get paid im good

Quote
MAlamang nasaktan yan nung sinabi ko ano requirements ko para masabi kang sound engineer so he's returning the favor.

no thats not it. my point in posting in this thread is simply: everyone in his/her right mind already knows that sims are not the same as amps. theres no point in going over this over and over again.once again:

Quote from: abyssinianson
Got both? Use em. Don't got 'em? use what you got. Tubes aren't going anywhere and neither are digital amps because someone, somewhere is going to use them for some song in some record
In an expanding universe, time is on the side of the outcast. Those who once inhabited the suburbs of human contempt find that without changing their address they eventually live in the metropolis

Offline xjepoyx

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The End!


ganda ng movie! may action drama at suspense! naubos ko din yung popcorn! hehehehe
good girls go to heaven. bad girls go to my room!  [/i]