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Author Topic: How hard is it to train a mastering engineer?  (Read 8672 times)

Offline xjepoyx

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Re: How hard is it to train a mastering engineer?
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2007, 03:23:47 AM »
^
^

+1

Tracking is crucial... its just like baking a cake. "Tracking" is where you prepare all the ingredients and mix it all together. "Mixing" the song is the where you bake the cake in the oven and "Mastering" is where you put the icing on top. A huge effort on preparing to bake the cake... well thats we all do during tracking... Sa mixing naman, Like what Charles Dye said "Mix it Like a Record" so para Mastering Engineers wont do much na lang.

Ginutom yata ako sa example ko hehehe

nga pala hazel since we had our gobos constructed a huge improvement in our drum recordings. kinukulong namin yung drums with 4 gobos. :)


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Offline skunkyfunk

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Re: How hard is it to train a mastering engineer?
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2007, 12:22:45 PM »
Zach is right.  It all begins with the TRACKING.

But seriously, it begins even BEFORE TRACKING.  It's all about knowing when you're ready to hit the studio.

Are you done with your song's arrangement?  Or are you gonna find things out when you hit the studio?

To the guitarists and bassists: are you sure about what to use in your signal chain for the recordings?  Do you know what amp/s to use in conjunction with your existing settings in your effects and guitars?  how much gain do your REALLY need?  What guitar and amp voicings are needed to support the song? 

To the drummers:  are you longing for an open sound?  More punch?  Ore something looser?  do you need single ply's for the toms?  how much do you need to muffle the snare?  Are you in for ambient miking or more for close-miking?  Do you REALLY need to trigger drum samples or can it be done acoustically from the kit?  Can you play well to a click?

To the vocalists:  Do you like your monitors loud?  Soft?  Does deafening your wars make you pick up more energy?   Do you have a lot of dynamics that you require a nice outboard compressor in the chain?  Have you practiced your harmonies?  Are you in tune?  autotune is not always  the answer.



I guess it is also a fault of having a lack of PRE-PRODUCTION.  A lot of bands hit the studios without much preparation, and , they just start to 'find themselves' in the studio.  So now, there is more room for error.

Anyway, there is still hope.

Offline starfugger

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Re: How hard is it to train a mastering engineer?
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2007, 01:45:41 PM »
Zach is right.  It all begins with the TRACKING.

But seriously, it begins even BEFORE TRACKING.  It's all about knowing when you're ready to hit the studio.

Are you done with your song's arrangement?  Or are you gonna find things out when you hit the studio?

To the guitarists and bassists: are you sure about what to use in your signal chain for the recordings?  Do you know what amp/s to use in conjunction with your existing settings in your effects and guitars?  how much gain do your REALLY need?  What guitar and amp voicings are needed to support the song? 

To the drummers:  are you longing for an open sound?  More punch?  Ore something looser?  do you need single ply's for the toms?  how much do you need to muffle the snare?  Are you in for ambient miking or more for close-miking?  Do you REALLY need to trigger drum samples or can it be done acoustically from the kit?  Can you play well to a click?

To the vocalists:  Do you like your monitors loud?  Soft?  Does deafening your wars make you pick up more energy?   Do you have a lot of dynamics that you require a nice outboard compressor in the chain?  Have you practiced your harmonies?  Are you in tune?  autotune is not always  the answer.



I guess it is also a fault of having a lack of PRE-PRODUCTION.  A lot of bands hit the studios without much preparation, and , they just start to 'find themselves' in the studio.  So now, there is more room for error.

Anyway, there is still hope.

malamang budget parin talaga ang problema for up and comers to properly plan out and implement pre prod.  somehow pwede naman gawan ng paraan sa studio, or before the sessions simply by holding a meeting with the band.

the points you raised are valid.  the band really should be aware that there is more to audio production than simply getting your guitars in tune and hitting the record button.

here are simple solutions to the pre prod problem in case wala masyadong budget yung banda:

Are you done with your song's arrangement?  Or are you gonna find things out when you hit the studio?

one could make rough mixes of a track so the band could review it and alter or add parts accordingly during thefollowing sessions.


To the guitarists and bassists: are you sure about what to use in your signal chain for the recordings?  Do you know what amp/s to use in conjunction with your existing settings in your effects and guitars?  how much gain do your REALLY need?  What guitar and amp voicings are needed to support the song?

this one could be tough.  there's always digital modelling for those who want to get close ;)  i personally prefer amps and simply try to make them work by using different settings.  most of the time it works kahit pano.  Bass tracks?  i DI through the Joe Meek.  Sounds ok most of the time. 

To the drummers:  are you longing for an open sound?  More punch?  Ore something looser?  do you need single ply's for the toms?  how much do you need to muffle the snare?  Are you in for ambient miking or more for close-miking?  Do you REALLY need to trigger drum samples or can it be done acoustically from the kit?  Can you play well to a click?

well you could try all sorts of micing.  you could mute close mics if you want to do roomy sonds.  have all the mics set up already in case you realize later that you need them.  as for the drum heads, im guessing it will really matter only marginally if one's drum set is not top of the line.  yes, it does make a difference on the sound, but in my case hindi masyadong dramatic ang changes.  what will matter in my experience is the TUNING.  yes.  BIG TIME.  take a day to tune that set if you must.  click tracking?  the drummer can try it in the studio and if doesn't work, ditch it. you'll know within a few seconds if the drummer is able to lock in or not. 

To the vocalists:  Do you like your monitors loud?  Soft?  Does deafening your wars make you pick up more energy?   Do you have a lot of dynamics that you require a nice outboard compressor in the chain?  Have you practiced your harmonies?  Are you in tune?  autotune is not always  the answer.

again you can simply try this in the studio.  shouldn't take too long.  if the vocalist is not in pitch i usually halt the recording.  i explain to him/her that this kind of problem cannot usually be solved easily.  it needs a lot of unlearning and relearning.  balik nalang sila after a week.  then i make a minus 1 for them to practice to.  vocalists have to print out a lyrics sheet for one more practical purpose other than not forget the words.  it is for the engineer to be able to mark problematic words/lines.  sometimes it is better to let the vocalist just sing the song from start to end without any interruptions.  then do punch in's later.  so yes please provide us those lyrics sheets :)

one more practical trick we can use is to let the vocalist sing the song from start to finish, disregarding the peaks.  the purpose of this is to simply provide us with a visual cue of where the dynamics get a little bit hot so we can anticipate the these  parts and either ride the faders or automate the compression as he or she sings. 

if a band has any previous recording of their songs (demo's etc) they should bring it in before the ssions for evaluation, so the engineer has a liittle idea of what the songs require :)
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Offline jeff_proX40

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Re: How hard is it to train a mastering engineer?
« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2007, 02:31:18 AM »
You might be surprised.

Protools is not the be all end all of recording. Mastering tools tend to be different from your standard recording tools simply because they tend to concentrate on playback systems. Heck, even the monitors and gear they use range from high end to really esoteric. Monitors can range from Adams to Emes and Focus systems. Compressors can be like the Manley Labs Variable Mu Tube Limiter and EQs like the Avalon Designs AD2077. Recording/mixing and mastering are 2 very different disciplines indeed.

Thanks, I really dont have much knowledge about recording and mastering. hmmm do we have seminars or clinic on how to learn all this things??
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Offline abyssinianson

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Re: How hard is it to train a mastering engineer?
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2007, 08:15:03 AM »
Thanks, I really dont have much knowledge about recording and mastering. hmmm do we have seminars or clinic on how to learn all this things??

attend the clinics held by the pros on this forum - they have a lot of good things to teach. Pro Tools is only one system that you can use to record and produce music. Cubase, Nuendo, Sonar, Logic and Digital Performer are other popular software suites which are just as good as PT at getting the job done of recording your songs. Remember, its how you use the tools at your disposal to record a great song and polish it to perfection - not the name of the software suite you happen to use. You can record a piece of cr@p song on PT or whatever system you have but if it is cr@p then it ain't gonna be much more than a poorly written song, recorded with a great system.
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Offline superwup

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Re: How hard is it to train a mastering engineer?
« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2007, 08:57:35 AM »
I would like to give one more "advice" to bands who like to do recording......

"stop bringing your friends, relatives, sisters in law, children etc. etc. etc !

Why:

It is not like going to "Disneyland or shopping in SM but hard working in a studio.
Specially children will start messing the studio after 20 minutes, they are children right?
The band will not perform "good" when te whole family is "watching"
You become nervous and make mistakes you would not make when you would go there with only bandmembers (maybe the manager)

Better "use"   :evil: your family etc. for buying the "original" cd so they count for the hit charts instead of "cheap computer copy´s", or for texting the whole day MYX to broadcast the new single or send them to as many  music stores as possible to "ask" if they have the "newest" single of band "whatever the name is" have in their collection.
Maybe the store manager will order the single and you will have a "hit"
Hahahahahahaha.......................

You can pay them back when you are "famous"  :-D

Even when you don´t become famous they still have the original cd to show the children and grandchildren to tell "look, grandpa made a cd and was famous"............. :wink:

My 5 cents contribution.........  :-P
« Last Edit: November 09, 2007, 09:00:03 AM by superwup »

Offline jeff_proX40

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Re: How hard is it to train a mastering engineer?
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2007, 09:21:31 AM »
I would like to give one more "advice" to bands who like to do recording......

"stop bringing your friends, relatives, sisters in law, children etc. etc. etc !

Why:

It is not like going to "Disneyland or shopping in SM but hard working in a studio.
Specially children will start messing the studio after 20 minutes, they are children right?
The band will not perform "good" when te whole family is "watching"
You become nervous and make mistakes you would not make when you would go there with only bandmembers (maybe the manager)

Better "use"   :evil: your family etc. for buying the "original" cd so they count for the hit charts instead of "cheap computer copy´s", or for texting the whole day MYX to broadcast the new single or send them to as many  music stores as possible to "ask" if they have the "newest" single of band "whatever the name is" have in their collection.
Maybe the store manager will order the single and you will have a "hit"
Hahahahahahaha.......................

You can pay them back when you are "famous"  :-D

Even when you don´t become famous they still have the original cd to show the children and grandchildren to tell "look, grandpa made a cd and was famous"............. :wink:

My 5 cents contribution.........  :-P

Korak!!
Just let your music fill the empty spaces in you. It's all you have so take advantage of it. It's a gift!

Offline starfugger

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Re: How hard is it to train a mastering engineer?
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2007, 10:14:59 AM »
Korak!!

LOL hindi ko nakita yon a.

yes totoong nakaka distract pag masyadong madaming audience.  minsan masyado din maliit ang space to acoomodate everyone.  may i suggest taking pics and videos instead so you can share the momentous event to friends family and total strangers ;)
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Offline KitC

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Re: How hard is it to train a mastering engineer?
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2007, 10:25:58 AM »
Even taking videos can be distracting during a recording. If the videocam has a way to turn off the "record ready" red light, do so.

This thread has turned into a tracking thread. I agree, however, that before a track is given to a mastering engineer, it has to be as close to the finished product as much as possible. To paraphrase Bob Katz, :"Mix it Like a Mastered Record".

I don't know if one can adequately train a mastering engineer from scratch. The way I see it, one has to be already adept in mixing before one can step up to mastering. Mastering is also about cohesion of not only one song, but the entire album or collection.
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Offline x_taxi

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Re: How hard is it to train a mastering engineer?
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2007, 12:18:23 PM »
i trained myself from the internet!  and i suck at it.  haha.

seriously, i just master usin the stock presets.  when i started scoring for the broadcast medium, i noticed that sometimes the editor would lower my cues to the point where you couldn't hear it during the broadcast.  lest i look stupid to the masses, i just learned bout mastering from the internet - basically only on what i should just minimally tweak.

either you do the normal expeditated process of an educational institution or just learn it the hit-or-miss hard way, crossin your fingers that you never learn any bad habits.

end result is that my producer is happy!  so i guess i'm doin the right thing.  although sometimes she asks me kung bingi daw ba ako. haha.

if anyone masters for tv, just hover around -14.  you can go over just a bit on a case to case basis, as long as you don't overwhelm the true stars of the show!

 :-) :-) :-)
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Offline starfugger

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Re: How hard is it to train a mastering engineer?
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2007, 02:17:31 PM »
i trained myself from the internet!  and i suck at it.  haha.

seriously, i just master usin the stock presets.  when i started scoring for the broadcast medium, i noticed that sometimes the editor would lower my cues to the point where you couldn't hear it during the broadcast.  lest i look stupid to the masses, i just learned bout mastering from the internet - basically only on what i should just minimally tweak.

either you do the normal expeditated process of an educational institution or just learn it the hit-or-miss hard way, crossin your fingers that you never learn any bad habits.

end result is that my producer is happy!  so i guess i'm doin the right thing.  although sometimes she asks me kung bingi daw ba ako. haha.

if anyone masters for tv, just hover around -14.  you can go over just a bit on a case to case basis, as long as you don't overwhelm the true stars of the show!

 :-) :-) :-)

wow -14 ... that's a lot of allowance :)  nice tip ;)
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Offline starfugger

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Re: How hard is it to train a mastering engineer?
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2007, 02:21:18 PM »
Even taking videos can be distracting during a recording. If the videocam has a way to turn off the "record ready" red light, do so.

This thread has turned into a tracking thread. I agree, however, that before a track is given to a mastering engineer, it has to be as close to the finished product as much as possible. To paraphrase Bob Katz, :"Mix it Like a Mastered Record".

I don't know if one can adequately train a mastering engineer from scratch. The way I see it, one has to be already adept in mixing before one can step up to mastering. Mastering is also about cohesion of not only one song, but the entire album or collection.

oo nga no kit?  di talaga maiwasan.  i think babalik at babalik sa tracking ang issue talaga e. 
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Offline skunkyfunk

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Re: How hard is it to train a mastering engineer?
« Reply #37 on: November 09, 2007, 05:14:17 PM »
Ok, for the sake of argument, the way i see it, in this country, the LAST TOUCH PRINCIPLE applies to our recordings.  When you have crap mastered, and the output is enhanced crap, the artist/producer blames the mastering engineer.   :-D

But granting that the tracking and mixing was done "perfectly", what does the mastering engineer do that the mixing engineer CANNOT do?

A lot of other questions for the mastering engineer:

1.  I've heard mastering engineers who require mixes to "NOT SOUND HUGE".  They mean they hate peaking and at most, a peak should be at around -6dBFS.  So if that is the case, why do some mixing engineers argue that the mix should approach the 'mastered' sound?

2.  Do you prefer stems or the basic 2-bus? 

3.  Do you like compressed final mixes (some sort of 'mastering compression plugin' rendered to the mix)?

Offline starfugger

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Re: How hard is it to train a mastering engineer?
« Reply #38 on: November 09, 2007, 06:39:33 PM »
Ok, for the sake of argument, the way i see it, in this country, the LAST TOUCH PRINCIPLE applies to our recordings.  When you have crap mastered, and the output is enhanced crap, the artist/producer blames the mastering engineer.   :-D

But granting that the tracking and mixing was done "perfectly", what does the mastering engineer do that the mixing engineer CANNOT do?

A lot of other questions for the mastering engineer:

1.  I've heard mastering engineers who require mixes to "NOT SOUND HUGE".  They mean they hate peaking and at most, a peak should be at around -6dBFS.  So if that is the case, why do some mixing engineers argue that the mix should approach the 'mastered' sound?

2.  Do you prefer stems or the basic 2-bus? 

3.  Do you like compressed final mixes (some sort of 'mastering compression plugin' rendered to the mix)?



hmmm.  the last apo album opened my eyes to the fact that mastering almost cannot touch an already good mix.  halo halo yung mga kanta don.  listen to them.  in some songs you can hear the the comp/lim being hit hard, in others ... bukang buka parin yung tunog .... they were all mastered the same way im assuming...

or am i wrong?
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Offline BALDO

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Re: How hard is it to train a mastering engineer?
« Reply #39 on: November 09, 2007, 06:53:53 PM »

hmmm.  the last apo album opened my eyes to the fact that mastering almost cannot touch an already good mix.  halo halo yung mga kanta don.  listen to them.  in some songs you can hear the the comp/lim being hit hard, in others ... bukang buka parin yung tunog .... they were all mastered the same way im assuming...

or am i wrong?
Hazel can i " practice on the mix u did?" please lang..i just want to know how i fare.. :wink:... if i think i am DEAF already.. sorry na lang ako.. me buy and sell section naman dito eh..
" o bili na kayo ng LA2A, UA and Grace Design mic pres. Nuemann mics all slightly used..guitars mint condition .. i will throw in the towel na .. :-D :-D :-D
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it is hard to be a trying hard Zach Lucero!!!! hehehe
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Offline starfugger

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Re: How hard is it to train a mastering engineer?
« Reply #40 on: November 09, 2007, 06:56:10 PM »
Hazel can i " practice on the mix u did?" please lang..i just want to know how i fare.. :wink:... if i think i am DEAF already.. sorry na lang ako.. me buy and sell section naman dito eh..
" o bili na kayo ng LA2A, UA and Grace Design mic pres. Nuemann mics all slightly used..guitars mint condition .. i will throw in the towel na .. :-D :-D :-D
ps
it is hard to be a trying hard Zach Lucero!!!! hehehe

haha wag  mo na ipost! i-pm mo nalang agad dito at baka sakaling makapagbenta ako ng kidney para ma-afford ko yan!  LOL.
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Offline BALDO

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Re: How hard is it to train a mastering engineer?
« Reply #41 on: November 09, 2007, 07:05:10 PM »
hahahah Hazel kelangan mo yata ng maraming kidney para sa isang mic at mic pre hahahah LOL isama mo na atay at balunbalunan  :-D :-D :-D.. oy ipadala mo sa akin yung mix mo ha? PLEASE??? :cry:
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Offline zach lucero

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Re: How hard is it to train a mastering engineer?
« Reply #42 on: November 09, 2007, 08:06:15 PM »
Ok, for the sake of argument, the way i see it, in this country, the LAST TOUCH PRINCIPLE applies to our recordings.  When you have crap mastered, and the output is enhanced crap, the artist/producer blames the mastering engineer.   :-D

i think pag sobrang iba na yung ginawa ng mastering engineer at na prito na yung project justified na sisihin sya.
But granting that the tracking and mixing was done "perfectly", what does the mastering engineer do that the mixing engineer CANNOT do?

or should not. destroy a perfectly good mix. let's focus on the do's. a mastering engineer should have the humility to go up to the mixing engineer and say "ey nice job, i hardly did anything to it, compress and leveling nalang (leveling is by the way a pain in itself, one overlooked too many by mastering engineerss)" On the same note, mixing engineers should have an open mind when a mastering engineer spots something in the mix he or she  missed, like a bad punch in, clips here and there, muddy mix etc. in the end dapat tulungan parin.

A lot of other questions for the mastering engineer:

1.  I've heard mastering engineers who require mixes to "NOT SOUND HUGE".  They mean they hate peaking and at most, a peak should be at around -6dBFS.  So if that is the case, why do some mixing engineers argue that the mix should approach the 'mastered' sound?

because there is a difference with the "mastered sound" and a "mastered level". Mastered sound does not automatically mean it is loud already. When you try to master a mix that  sounds good and pristine already that means eq on the mastering engineers part is to down to  a minimal.  at the most  .5db increments. that's the type of mix that sounds finished and mastered already, except for the level. Yun ang magagaling na mixing engineer pag hindi na kailangan galawin masyado ng mastering as the level goes up.  you try to play around with the overall sound of the mix with just the gain and input of your compressor.  When a mastering engineer gets  a project with a blasted  level meaning there is no more headroom, there is not much that engineer can do anymore.


2.  Do you prefer stems or the basic 2-bus? 

     i prefer stereo. i still feel  the line has to be drawn between mixing and mastering. if i get stems and trip out on them, i feel that is  mixing teritory still. plus dagdag trabaho pa yan. hehe


3.  Do you like compressed final mixes (some sort of 'mastering compression plugin' rendered to the mix)?


for me nope.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2007, 08:10:14 PM by zach lucero »

Offline zach lucero

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Re: How hard is it to train a mastering engineer?
« Reply #43 on: November 09, 2007, 08:18:53 PM »

hmmm.  the last apo album opened my eyes to the fact that mastering almost cannot touch an already good mix.  halo halo yung mga kanta don.  listen to them.  in some songs you can hear the the comp/lim being hit hard, in others ... bukang buka parin yung tunog .... they were all mastered the same way im assuming...

or am i wrong?

nope. dante of u.r compiled everything. but he recieved numerous "master pegs" for each song. hassle talaga compilation albums. iba iba ang tunog ng mga kanta dahil iba iba ang pinang galingan ng mga studio. dante had to treat each song differently. but you are right, dante felt that in some songs hindi na nya gagalawin yung eq, call nya yun. pag ok na yung mix eq nalang pag nilakasan at naiba. pag hindi, no need.

Offline BALDO

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Re: How hard is it to train a mastering engineer?
« Reply #44 on: November 10, 2007, 12:52:06 PM »
Zach.. is that Dante the engr of Jimi A dati nung sa makati square pa sila? i met him a few years back.. he's an awesome dude very accomodating , great guy!!!.. he is the one who showed me some stuff on digital recording. 8-)
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Offline zach lucero

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Re: How hard is it to train a mastering engineer?
« Reply #45 on: November 11, 2007, 11:11:28 AM »
yeh that's probably him, ayus yun :D

Offline skunkyfunk

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Re: How hard is it to train a mastering engineer?
« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2007, 10:32:46 AM »
Hi Zach.  Just in case I refer clients to you, I just wanna know if you can make 'em mixes sound as loud as, err... -8dBFS RMS or louder?  I know it is ridiculous to go with the trend but some clients feel "niloloko sila" when you say that mixing can't make your mixes as loud as the foreign and some local releases which went to a DEDICATED mastering facility.  It's like when I say, "You need a mastering house..." para bang ang tingin nila dapat kaya ko rin gawin.  I can make my mixes as loud as -12dBFS with less boxiness but Vlado Meller kind of makes my mixes sound soft.

Anyway, let's post this around our studios for our clients:

http://www.prorec.com/Articles/tabid/109/EntryID/247/Default.aspx

Offline starfugger

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Re: How hard is it to train a mastering engineer?
« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2007, 11:38:17 AM »
mmm. simple solution:

client: can you make our songs as loud as (insert foreign album name here)?
studio engineer: no.  but zach can help you with that :-D
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Offline abyssinianson

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Re: How hard is it to train a mastering engineer?
« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2007, 11:43:50 AM »
IMO, if your clients end up feeling that mastering under a certain level is part of "kalokohan" then there is something to be said about imparting the proper idea behind mastering to them. I believe that part of your job as a producer and engineer is to educate artists about the production process if they don't know anything about the technicalities of the process because it will help them make better records in the future and show them the subtleties of making music from behind the desk.

It seems to me that the channels of communication between you and your clients need to be beefed up. Personally, I have never come across the situation where the people I work with feel like I am gyping them at all because even before hitting the board and setting up the track sheets, I meet with the entire band (and their manager if they have one), go over their pre-production material  and discuss specific goals for the recording process. This way, I can answer whatever questions they have and direct my workflow much more efficiently with each member of the band as I track and mix their work. You need to be able to communicate with your clients well and have a common understanding of your methods as an engineer and their goals as artists. You don't have to cater to a trend but it seems from your troubles stem from the band trying to dictate your workflow even though they hired you in the first place to mix and record their work. If you aren't fine with this, you need to make it clear. Posting stuff around a studio will make it less likely for people to read them especially if they are paying an hourly fee. Talk to the people and discuss the important aspects of the recording process with them - it'll save you headaches.
ako si mimordz. 友だちからよろしくです!

Offline superwup

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Re: How hard is it to train a mastering engineer?
« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2007, 11:46:49 AM »
Nice article Skunk, thanks for the link........