Vinyl vs. CD and FS2 vs. SSL vs. CDX - Art of Turntablism

[jakobspiral]

Ok, I have a question...

About old vinyl records before digital became the standard, I heard that a lot of collectors buy the original vinyl because the CD sounds like crap. Why weren't the recording engineers able to transfer the vinyl quality faithfully into the CD?

If they weren't able to transfer them faithfully back then, will they be able to transfer the vinyl quality into digital format now? Or, does vinyl hold a special advantage which digital has yet to duplicate?

[jplacson]

CDs have a very limited frequency and dynamic range vs vinyl.  Mp3s are far worse than CDs... so you can see that it isn't really getting "better".  Just because it's new, doesn't mean it's better.  8-tracks sounded far better than the 2-track cassettes in the 80's.  It's all about lowering costs to make more profit.

Digital counterparts for vinyl are SACDs and DVD Audio.  Although a lot of audiophiles will argue otherwise... I feel that 24-bit SACD and DVD Audio comes pretty close to vinyl.  But mind you, we're just talking about the medium here.

But for the most part, CDs, 320kbps mp3s, and Dolby Digital audio is good enough for all but the most elitist audiophiles.

[jakobspiral]

CDs have a very limited frequency and dynamic range vs vinyl.  Mp3s are far worse than CDs... so you can see that it isn't really getting "better".  Just because it's new, doesn't mean it's better.  8-tracks sounded far better than the 2-track cassettes in the 80's.  It's all about lowering costs to make more profit.

Digital counterparts for vinyl are SACDs and DVD Audio.  Although a lot of audiophiles will argue otherwise... I feel that 24-bit SACD and DVD Audio comes pretty close to vinyl.  But mind you, we're just talking about the medium here.

But for the most part, CDs, 320kbps mp3s, and Dolby Digital audio is good enough for all but the most elitist audiophiles.

Oh, I see...

Thank you very much for the info.

[abyssinianson]

i have a very, very bad vinyl record addicition.

[jplacson]

This is an "iPod" for you Abyss! 



needs 6 "D" cells batteries, and only $99

http://www.uberreview.com/2005/10/portable-record-player.htm

[xjepoyx]

ei Jacob! long time no see bro.


Like mikey(abbys)... if i really were to choose between cd's and vinyls, id go for the vinyls.


to answer your some of your query Jacob...

Siguro dala na rin ng pagiging turntableist ko nung araw thats why i still love those  vinyl records.

Heres a brief history... in the early to mid 90's, CD mixing is introduced to DJ's but DJ's problem is how are they gonna do scratching with this CD players that has only the cue button, the pitch control, play/pause, forward rewind. Then in the mid 90's PIONEER introduces the CDJ's decks "BUT" most of the DJ's still dont like the feel of doing scratchings on rubber ttables on the top of the cd decks. But now Numark and Technics and other brand names have developed a deck with a fake vinyl on top of the decks so those dj's can still feel a vinyl on their hands eventho its a cd player

I just bought some vinyls at djcity.com and meng! ill tell you eventho those samples are digitally recorded... the sound coming out from the styl/cart to the tone arm to the mixer then out on the amps and speakers... its really sweeter!


 

[KitC]

This is an "iPod" for you Abyss! 

Now THAT is a true diskman. 

I wonder how they implemented skip protection.

[greenweenie]

Personally, I like vinyl better. The album sleeve itself is an art form. My dad has Live  in Isle of Wight by the Who and the garbage from that show is included in the sleeve. I think its the same with the Woodstock record. The sound quality of vinyl has warmth and its soothing. The only downside to vinyl is obviously, the size. And the convenience factor of skipping tracks. I think the reason why people in the old days had singles so that they had only the songs they wanted. 2 cents.

[abyssinianson]

ei Jacob! long time no see bro.


Like mikey(abbys)... if i really were to choose between cd's and vinyls, id go for the vinyls.


to answer your some of your query Jacob...

Siguro dala na rin ng pagiging turntableist ko nung araw thats why i still love those  vinyl records.

Heres a brief history... in the early to mid 90's, CD mixing is introduced to DJ's but DJ's problem is how are they gonna do scratching with this CD players that has only the cue button, the pitch control, play/pause, forward rewind. Then in the mid 90's PIONEER introduces the CDJ's decks "BUT" most of the DJ's still dont like the feel of doing scratchings on rubber ttables on the top of the cd decks. But now Numark and Technics and other brand names have developed a deck with a fave vinyl on top of the decks so those dj's can still feel a vinyl on their hands eventho its a cd player

I just bought some vinyls at djcity.com and meng! ill tell you eventho those samples are digitally recorded... the sound coming out from the styl/cart to the tone arm to the mixer then out on the amps and speakers... its really sweeter!


 

i agree with jeps that although CD sounds clearer and is not as prone to the same wear and tear as vinyl, a lot of DJs find it hard to let go of the tactile sensation that you get with mixing on records. I have used the "vinyl top" CD players that Numark, Pioneer and Vestax have come out with but I never really liked them. Even for units with a heavier jog/ vinyl top, the feeling is not the same even though they try to mimic the weight of the platter on the units as well as they can.

Personally, I can't ever bring myself to buy a Pioneer CDJ or any other CD based player because the feel just seems to odd for me. However, I do appreciate the use of products like Final Scratch because it allows me to use songs not released on vinyl live in the clubs on on my mixes without having to go through the trouble of wasting a few CDs just to play some songs. These days I usually mix with 3 tables (if available), keeping 2 tables for records and the third only for Final Scratch. The flexibility works great and I get to have the familiar feel of mixing on vinyl.

[KitC]

So which of the 2 formats has better bass? Lemme hear your thoughts...

[abyssinianson]

So which of the 2 formats has better bass? Lemme hear your thoughts...

i would say that CD has more consistent bass over vinyl for the very reason that the quality of vinyl varies so much from manufacturer to manufacturer and from label to label that you might get a well cut record one time and have a really shallow one the next. however, if you do get your hands on a well cut record, like say from Subliminal (dance music label) or the LPs released by Columbia back in the day, the bass sounds more organic - bigger even - in comparison to CD. It is also noteworthy to mention that the type of stylus you choose has a lot to do with how well the bass translates from record to amplifier as well. For DJ spinning, I am a huge fan of Ortofon and Shure needles and Matsudaira stylii for  home listening.

[xjepoyx]

what are your views mikey on comparison between Shure m44-7 and Ortofon OM Qbert for scratchings?  But i really wanna get my hands on Ortofon Concordes. Currently im using Shure M44-7 on my SL1200's

[abyssinianson]

i've only used the Qberts from Ortofon and they track and cut through the mix really well. Between Shure and Ortofon, you really can't go wrong with either company because they both make great needles that I've used for years. However, I favor the Ortofon concorde pro for general mixing because I find they have the best balance in sound between different genres. I mix a lot of progressive, techno, house and DnB with the occassional acid and broken beat so I need a needle that translates well between subtle and really pounding music. I can't say I have any complaints about the Ortofons, really.

Do you normally put a weight on your stylus? If you don't, I find that the Shure actually tracks better than the Ortofon for really aggressive tablework. I am kind of a stickler for being light on the stylus weight because it is hard enough hunting down some records, the last thing I need is to speed up the damage on them when I play out.

[Tarkuz Toccata]

Check this out...

RANE Vinyl/CD Turntable USB Interface

[abyssinianson]

Check this out...

RANE Vinyl/CD Turntable USB Interface

that's what I use but i have final scratch, not serato's product. Before Stanton/ Serato acquired the Final Scratch technology, it was making rounds in the US through John Acquaviva and Ritchie Hawtin. Ritchie actually used it first after comissioning some Dutch developers for a product that would allow him to integrate his laptop into the DJ set. I think the first time I saw Final Scratch in its "road" version was in the early 90's...imagine my curiosity when I saw the product at a DJ set. I was going,"How does he...what the hell is that?!?"

[xjepoyx]

actually havnt tried putting a weight on the headshells yet. with my m44-7 ok naman sya fo7 table works since i only fills for my like dj kilmore of incubus. maybe if djcity.com has stock of qbert styl and cart by january il probably get one.

[mariuo]

is it true that analog would capture room ambience/vibration? i kinda remeber reading it somewhere hehe. i dunno if its a bunch of hooey

[xjepoyx]

Check this out...

RANE Vinyl/CD Turntable USB Interface

i heard that Final Scratch is way better because it uses firewire and Rane only uses USB 1.1

[Tarkuz Toccata]

FS2 vs SSL vs CDX The Ultimate Showdown - Rane Serato wins!

I can't really see how people can make the argument that this wasn't a fair comparison. This Serato program was on a inferior computer in comparison to the 3.2 ghz processor, and still performed to the same par, and in my opinion better then the Final Scratch 2.

The programs use such little system resources as well. 

I can run my Internet Explorer, Mozilla Firefox, Ares, MS SQL server, and video and other dumb sh1t in the background with this hoe, and not have a problem.

So to those that want to say otherwise, keep in mind I have a degree in Computer Science, and until you take a Computer Systems Architecture class, fail it and pass it on the 2nd try because your first professor was a [sausage] and got fired anyway after failing nearly half the students, and is now driving a taxi cab (true story), keep your comments to yourself until you are knowledge about the subject.

To me it comes down to price: they all do the same sh1t in my opinion.

Serato is the cheapest to me, because everyone has a Desktop or Laptop.  It also performs the best in my opinion.

The CDX will cost about 1600.

Final Scratch 2 is about 600 from what I saw last.

The most ideal product I would use: a CDX using Serato with the time code CDs

I would use this because there's no skipping, the sound is good, and you get all the music you want.

Some advice to companies: Keep in mind that many aren't very apt to change. 

Many of the djs like vinyl, for historic purposes, sound, personal preference, or the "keeping it real" argument.

So you have to make products that don't say FU(K YOU to those users.

And please find a way to put this software into cheaper devices that do the same thing instead of a laptop (which might get jacked by some assh0le), maybe an ipod or a turntable that has a hard drive built into it.

Both the software packages have problems.  Fix them.

As far as I'm concerned I would feel much better taking out a CDX to many gigs, instead of the software packages, simply because of potential SYSTEM crashing, and the fear of theft of my laptop.

Also integrate things into mixers, like effects, or software processors.  Don't put them on the Turntables.

Well that's my review. 

I personally own Serato and if anyone has any questions contact me at:

djmanilaice@crowdcontrolrecords.com

Manils

[Tarkuz Toccata]

Serato vs Final Scratch - Rane SSL wins again!

FS2 is a good product, but the simple fact is that it is more system intensive and less stable than Serato. So if you have it running well on your machine, that's fantastic, but a lot of other users have not been so lucky. I currently have both located in my house, my own SSL and my flatmates FS2, mine on a cheap laptop and his on a pretty bling Mac. Despite me fiddling with it and the more powerful computer, FS2 has a noticable latency ... to the point that i can't scratch on it and have trouble cueing up... and various glitchy habits plus has crashed on me a few times. SSL with a few basic Windows tweaks has been boringly reliable.

Anyone with software support experience will tell you that at the end of the day, there is an element of luck in whether your particular hardware and software combination will work flawlessly with any particular application. Sounds like you've been lucky enough to get a good reliable combination. Everyone else i know with a FinalScratch product has not been so lucky. On the flipside, almost every SSL owner i know has had it running with very few issues.

With technology like this, especially for DJing, you need a reliable solution first and foremost. In the booth is not the place to be working around issues and fixing bugs. SSL has a well deserved rocksolid reputation for this, mainly because they won't add any more features until the previous set is running as well as possible. One more note in SSLs favour.. the simple interface is a godsend. To switch between Absolute and Relative in FS takes several windows and a fair amount of mouse action, in SSL its a single button click. Everything is simpler and more streamlined in SSL, and you don't have the 98 features you don't use or use once a month clogging things up. There is definitely a place for extra features, but that place is not before stability and ease of use.

Btw i know DJ gear and i can tweak an OS to a fairly advanced level, so don't go telling me i don't know how to optimise my equipment.

[makinao]

I'm not a DJ, so my comments are restricted to evaluative and recreational listening. I grew up with vinyl having been born in the 50's, and have had CDs since they were introduced in 1982. So I feel qualified to comment  on this issue.

I do not miss vinyl. I did not enjoy the maintenance involved: cleaning and washing records, cleaning styli, adjusting tonearm balance and anti-skate, cartridge overhang, etc. Call me OC, but surface noise, static and scratches drove me nuts. These artifacts also sucked out at least 10% of the available dynamic range of vinyl, which was limited to start with. So don't get me started with dynamic range. And don't say my setup was to blame. My last (and still extant) TT was a Technics SL-3200 with a Shure V-15 type V cartridge, which is more than decent by any standard.

So when CDs arrived, I just looked ahead, and my TT has been in cold storage since. I'll open it up occasionally when I want to hear an old LP that I don't have a CD copy of, but for the most part, I'm pretty much done with fussing over it. Sure CDs are more strident than vinyl, but dynamic range, noise, and channel separation are light years better.

For casual listening, I choose CDs, DVDs, and all the data-noncompressed digital variations of those (SACD, DVD-A).

For recording, my preference would be high-res digital (96/24) with the best available converters.

My analog medium of choice is analog tape: 1/4" 2-track at 15 ips or better, and 2" 24-track at 30 ips or better. For both listening and recording, I'll choose this over vinyl any day.

[Tarkuz Toccata]

i heard that Final Scratch is way better because it uses firewire and Rane only uses USB 1.1

Scratch LIVE / Final Scratch Comparison

The main questions we get from customers when talking about Scratch LIVE and Final Scratch are, why is Scratch LIVE better than Final Scratch 2? Isn’t Firewire better than USB?   

Scratch LIVE is a better choice because of:   

1 - Sound Quality   

With vinyl emulation it is not just the sound or touch that makes it feel like real vinyl, it’s  the marriage of the two. Here at Serato we spent many sleepless nights getting this absolutely perfect, and it is! There is nothing that you can do on your turntables that can’t  be done on Scratch LIVE - it is the real deal.   

2 - Latency   

Latency is very important; it is the amount of delay between the movement of the record and the corresponding sound output. Final Scratch publicize the fact that their system has  “Firewire for ultra low latency” - Scratch LIVE uses USB, and has half the latency of Final Scratch 2, resulting in a much tighter feel. High latency results in a ‘sloppy’ feel, as if there  is a problem with the turntable. For information on how to do this test yourself see scratchlive.net   

3 - Stability   

This is the most important thing when you are playing live, and Scratch LIVE is rock solid, which is something that Final Scratch is not well known for. Recently Jazzy Jeff performed  with Will Smith at the Philadelphia Live8 concert that was broadcast live to two billion people using Scratch LIVE, he can do that because he knows he can trust Scratch LIVE. A  lot of high profile DJs have switched from Final Scratch to Scratch LIVE for this reason.   

4 - Customer Service   

We take this very seriously, and any problems or questions you have will get answered fast. Scratch LIVE is famous for exceptional support and the forum is moderated by both Serato  and Rane Staff. You will get your problems and suggestions read by the people who can make a difference and answer accurately. After the real vinyl feel of Scratch LIVE and its  stability, customer service is the next main reason why DJs choose Scratch LIVE. Hundreds of Final Scratch users have switched to Scratch LIVE.   

5 - Backwards compatibility and free upgrades   

We think that once you buy Scratch LIVE you should be able to use it forever. The hardware  alone is tough enough to survive for a lifetime. And we don’t think that you should have to pay for upgrades, so all new software updates are free. We also don’t think that just  because we have a new good idea your product should become obsolete. So when we release new hardware, the software continues to be compatible with both the old and the  new hardware so you can continue to get the latest software, even if you don’t have the latest hardware. This is not the case with Final Scratch where you need to pay for software  upgrades and the Final Scratch 2 software can’t be run with the Final Scratch 1 hardware.


Rane SSL is a standard equipment already in most popular clubs around the planet. Also, many manufacturers of turntables and CD players want to be Serato-friendly. Just take a look at Numark iCDX and Pioneer's CDJ-400...

[xjepoyx]

mejo OT na tarcuz about the scratch live and final scratch.


last OT question... how much is it locally? its $485 daw sabi ng friend ko na nasa US ngayon ang final scratch

[Tarkuz Toccata]

mejo OT na tarcuz about the scratch live and final scratch.

just got carried away. sorry!

last OT question... how much is it locally? its $485 daw sabi ng friend ko na nasa US ngayon ang final scratch

i don't know the price of FS locally. it used to be around $600 in the US. humina siguro ang sales kaya binagsak ang presyo. current list price of SSL is around P29k.

[xjepoyx]

oh sorry... im refering to rane scratch live pala yung $485. just ym'ed my friend a while ago and shes in LA. i asked her to ask about the price of scatch live w/c is $485 nga daw and the Final Scratch is $520. i even checked sa MF and other music sites... mas mahal talaga kung sa web ka bibili at may taxes pa.

any idea on local prices?