QUALITY vs COST

[jimy james]

kala ko curtains down na...

ganda na sana nang ending... parang production number...

[firemodel55]

I hope I didn't sound like I was dissing the hiyaw sound. I'm not saying that it doesn't exist, as what you've all stated I know it does but its just a bit overrated IMHO. Like I said before, that "sound" is a guitar's (un)natural characteristic and every guitar has it. Based on the posts, we have various guitars from various manufacturers within a very wide price range, from very cheap to the very expensive all exhibiting the same characteristic. So what does that tell us? IMHO basing a criteria on what makes a great guitar on this factor alone is like saying all guitars sound great. But hey, that's just my opinion base d on my experience and people can subscribe to it or not like you said. To add to that there's also no use of not accepting the real facts just because the guys you like told you otherwise di ba? 

To further clarify, HIYAW is usually followed by the other desirable qualities in an electric guitar such as the presence of sustain, tonal balance, responsiveness (not being stiff sounding and easy to play), the ability to cut thru a band mix and unpredictability.  I would say that only 3-5% of guitars have the property with a higher percentage for the high end luthiers.   Also, among the 3-5%, they vary in the amount of HIYAW.  So I don't know whether you may like this desirable quality but I can sure tell you that its a noticeable difference that makes you classify other electric guitars as dead sounding.

[deltaslim]

@bryanarzaga

Hey bro, I heard the clips that your friend sent you regarding the "hiyaw". It is a fundamental sound transitioning into feedback. IMO and experience ANY guitar can do this as long as you have enough gain & volume to generate feedback.

You are close. I've said this ages ago. Unless Alex is hearing something else, I think that quality is simply 'harmonics'. Certain notes have fundamentals that die out and whilst the harmonics keep sustaining. So it seems that the harmonics are getting 'louder'.  But not all guitars can do this; there are dead guitars.  Basic requirement is decent wood and good sustain.


@ Letour: Para ka talagang nago-oral argument sa court, attorney!

"IT HAS TO BE YOU THAT PLAYS. You claim it makes certain tones. You have to make it come out. Because when the "known guitarists" will play, they will sound like them NOT like you."

[turiguiliano]

epic thread is epic.

[hmn8]

You are close. I've said this ages ago. Unless Alex is hearing something else, I think that quality is simply 'harmonics'. Certain notes have fundamentals that die out and whilst the harmonics keep sustaining. So it seems that the harmonics are getting 'louder'.  But not all guitars can do this; there are dead guitars.  Basic requirement is decent wood and good sustain.

 Yes you are right. If you read my post after that I stated that I misunderstood what they were referring to and finally concluded that it was a fundamental transitioning into a harmonic overtone. Like I also stated only certain notes exhibit that but I think all guitars can do it, it's just a matter of finding which note on the fretboard does it. The real question to people is.. so what if you found out that the D note on the 7th fret does this? Are going to write all your songs around that note just to show off that sound? You can use it in a song or two but after that it becomes overbearing especially when it is done on the same note. The actual benefit of it in a musical situation is very slim. The only benefit it has on a person is if he goes to every kid he meets whose had about a month of guitar playing experience going, " Can your guitar do this? No? Well cause my guitar's all that ". Its like the blind leading the blind.

[jimy james]

me thinks this thread refuses to die... so I'm bringing out the...

[deltaslim]

me thinks this thread refuses to die...

I think the topic itself was dead long ago, it's just "we" never learn.  If Alex insists that the hiyaw quality is different from a sustaining harmonic, he has every right to his opinion. It's his personal belief and if he doesn't even have to convince anyone else. But since it seems that he's on a crusade to 'enlighten' or 'convince' everyone, of course people would ask for proof. And as I argued ages ago, and Letour postulated better than I did, if has to be something Alex can reproduce on his own because he says he can hear it in his own bedroom. But the rules of evidence has never been established and agreed on. It's an impasse. Ergo, topic is dead... for now.

To Alex's credit, he always says, "come hear it for yourself".  So if you don't accept his invitation or have never heard the guitar in person as played by others, you have no right to keep on whining. OTOH, it's better if Alex will actually provide proof in a public setting and verified by many ears, not just one. That wouldn't actually settle anything cuz people will still walk away with different impressions ("Wala naman e", "Meron nga", "Di ako sure... nabingi ako e.", ie, the Rashomon-effect). But at least there will be more "witnesses" and people can argue on the basis of what they see and hear, not hearsay. 

[hmn8]

I think the topic itself was dead long ago, it's just "we" never learn.  If Alex insists that the hiyaw quality is different from a sustaining harmonic, he has every right to his opinion. It's his personal belief and if he doesn't even have to convince anyone else. But since it seems that he's on a crusade to 'enlighten' or 'convince' everyone, of course people would ask for proof. And as I argued ages ago, and Letour postulated better than I did, if has to be something Alex can reproduce on his own because he says he can hear it in his own bedroom. But the rules of evidence has never been established and agreed on. It's an impasse. Ergo, topic is dead... for now.

To Alex's credit, he always says, "come hear it for yourself".  So if you don't accept his invitation or have never heard the guitar in person as played by others, you have no right to keep on whining. OTOH, it's better if Alex will actually provide proof in a public setting and verified by many ears, not just one. That wouldn't actually settle anything cuz people will still walk away with different impressions ("Wala naman e", "Meron nga", "Di ako sure... nabingi ako e.", ie, the Rashomon-effect). But at least there will be more "witnesses" and people can argue on the basis of what they see and hear, not hearsay. 

   People in this forum will never learn because all the things you read here are opinions only. It doesn't matter whether you believe one person or the other, it doesn't matter if you believe yourself only, your opinion is as good as the next guy. If you can't stand people posting their opinions on any topic whether you think its dead or not, stop reading it. Don't whine about it because like you said, everybody has every right to their opinion.

[Letour]

Deltaslim,

Thanks for the compliments. I appreciate it.

No more comments from me... Its COSTING me QUALITY time every time I open this thread. 

[jimy james]

[BAMF]

Papalakpakan naman sana kita Joric ah. Maghahakot pa ko ng papalakpak.

Ay mali. I won't get invited in the first place pala.

I think the topic itself was dead long ago, it's just "we" never learn.  If Alex insists that the hiyaw quality is different from a sustaining harmonic, he has every right to his opinion. It's his personal belief and if he doesn't even have to convince anyone else. But since it seems that he's on a crusade to 'enlighten' or 'convince' everyone, of course people would ask for proof. And as I argued ages ago, and Letour postulated better than I did, if has to be something Alex can reproduce on his own because he says he can hear it in his own bedroom. But the rules of evidence has never been established and agreed on. It's an impasse. Ergo, topic is dead... for now.

To Alex's credit, he always says, "come hear it for yourself".  So if you don't accept his invitation or have never heard the guitar in person as played by others, you have no right to keep on whining. OTOH, it's better if Alex will actually provide proof in a public setting and verified by many ears, not just one. That wouldn't actually settle anything cuz people will still walk away with different impressions ("Wala naman e", "Meron nga", "Di ako sure... nabingi ako e.", ie, the Rashomon-effect). But at least there will be more "witnesses" and people can argue on the basis of what they see and hear, not hearsay. 

[pitongjerome]

maniniwala naman ang madaming tao pag may proof eh...

ung aapprove ang maraming tao.. kasi kung isang tao lang ang magjjudge eh hnd mashado reliable.. pero kung maraming ears ang magsasabi nun, mas malaki ang percentage na tama ang isang tao..

demo please!

[IncX]

thats why i like this guy...

feature=related

he backs his talk with demos.

[vhunter]

I think theres a threshold. Craftsmanship and quality can be measured. Youll see the difference in the finish of a 500 dollar guitar and a 2k guitar but the diff of 2k to 5k is more subtle. Its like a regular Yum VS a Big Brothers burger. They both do the same things but no one can argue that a Yum is of less quality than a BBB because it can be measured by the meat, condiments, type of bread etc. Doesnt mean the BBB is better than the Yum coz we all have diff tastes but FOR SURE, you cant get a BBB for the price of a Yum. Suwerte nalang yung guy na masaya sa 500 dollar guitar if thats his preference but definately Quality comes at a Cost.

Ill go order my mc chicken. Hahahha

[leech]

I think theres a threshold. Craftsmanship and quality can be measured. Youll see the difference in the finish of a 500 dollar guitar and a 2k guitar but the diff of 2k to 5k is more subtle. Its like a regular Yum VS a Big Brothers burger. They both do the same things but no one can argue that a Yum is of less quality than a BBB because it can be measured by the meat, condiments, type of bread etc. Doesnt mean the BBB is better than the Yum coz we all have diff tastes but FOR SURE, you cant get a BBB for the price of a Yum. Suwerte nalang yung guy na masaya sa 500 dollar guitar if thats his preference but definately Quality comes at a Cost.

Ill go order my mc chicken. Hahahha

I'd go for wham! miks.

[Letour]

I think theres a threshold. Craftsmanship and quality can be measured. Youll see the difference in the finish of a 500 dollar guitar and a 2k guitar but the diff of 2k to 5k is more subtle. Its like a regular Yum VS a Big Brothers burger. They both do the same things but no one can argue that a Yum is of less quality than a BBB because it can be measured by the meat, condiments, type of bread etc. Doesnt mean the BBB is better than the Yum coz we all have diff tastes but FOR SURE, you cant get a BBB for the price of a Yum. Suwerte nalang yung guy na masaya sa 500 dollar guitar if thats his preference but definately Quality comes at a Cost.

Ill go order my mc chicken. Hahahha

Oh no, the debate has shifted to the Burger Wars..... Sana Abalos is a member here. 

[skunkyfunk]

I think theres a threshold. Craftsmanship and quality can be measured. Youll see the difference in the finish of a 500 dollar guitar and a 2k guitar but the diff of 2k to 5k is more subtle. Its like a regular Yum VS a Big Brothers burger. They both do the same things but no one can argue that a Yum is of less quality than a BBB because it can be measured by the meat, condiments, type of bread etc. Doesnt mean the BBB is better than the Yum coz we all have diff tastes but FOR SURE, you cant get a BBB for the price of a Yum. Suwerte nalang yung guy na masaya sa 500 dollar guitar if thats his preference but definately Quality comes at a Cost.

Ill go order my mc chicken. Hahahha

Which points to arguments like "WHY ARE DUMBLES SO EXPENSIVE?"  
Is it because they are rare?  
it because of Alex Dumble's "crystal lattice yadda yadda impressive speech?"
Is it because Robben Ford and Joe Bonamassa uses them?

Consider  geting a Dumble clone (i.e. Two Rock, Fuchs) and it still costs way too much for the average joe,  "because it was modeled after a $25k original, so they're making one for 10% the price."  

IMO, the real argument here is determining AT WHAT PRICE POINT DOES A  GUITAR START TO YIELD LESS IMPROVEMENTS? (I think we made a thread eons ago re: the law of diminishing returns and guitars).  

FACT:  I've seen rich folks here whining about buying some really expensive guitars (>$3k) and not publicly admitting they hate the purchase simply because they lose the 'mojo' effect on people.

[skunkyfunk]

maniniwala naman ang madaming tao pag may proof eh...

ung aapprove ang maraming tao.. kasi kung isang tao lang ang magjjudge eh hnd mashado reliable.. pero kung maraming ears ang magsasabi nun, mas malaki ang percentage na tama ang isang tao..

demo please!

Ngayon ko narealize kung bakit mas malaki ang binabayad ng mga kumpanya sa endorsements and advertisements kesa sa pag-improve ng mga produkto nila with better materials. Dahil yan sa mga ganitong klase ng comment.

I'd bet a great salesman with shredding skills can talk a kid into getting a Marshall MG50 over telling him to go to the Philmusic Buy and Sell forum and snag a vintage Fender SF Twin. They cost the same btw...

[pitongjerome]

Ngayon ko narealize kung bakit mas malaki ang binabayad ng mga kumpanya sa endorsements and advertisements kesa sa pag-improve ng mga produkto nila with better materials. Dahil yan sa mga ganitong klase ng comment.

I'd bet a great salesman with shredding skills can talk a kid into getting a Marshall MG50 over telling him to go to the Philmusic Buy and Sell forum and snag a vintage Fender SF Twin. They cost the same btw...

what im telling is, if he claims something, prove it. iba un sa endorsements.

[BAMF]

Which points to arguments like "WHY ARE DUMBLES SO EXPENSIVE?"  
Is it because they are rare?  
it because of Alex Dumble's "crystal lattice yadda yadda impressive speech?"
Is it because Robben Ford and Joe Bonamassa uses them?

Consider  geting a Dumble clone (i.e. Two Rock, Fuchs) and it still costs way too much for the average joe,  "because it was modeled after a $25k original, so they're making one for 10% the price."  

IMO, the real argument here is determining AT WHAT PRICE POINT DOES A  GUITAR START TO YIELD LESS IMPROVEMENTS? (I think we made a thread eons ago re: the law of diminishing returns and guitars).  

FACT:  I've seen rich folks here whining about buying some really expensive guitars (>$3k) and not publicly admitting they hate the purchase simply because they lose the 'mojo' effect on people.

Haaay. Let me change hats now and yes, I teach Principles of Marketing as well. Salamat sa MBA and I'm not a simple cost-bound techie geek.

There are many models of pricing. The most basic is the cost-plus where you get the cost and add your margin. But this usually applies to commodities like rice, sugar, instant noodles and China made guitars.

Then there's the prestige or "luxury" pricing, which has no direct bearing on the cost of the product. You're maintaining a certain "status" and "exclusivity" and that's why you select a price range that's relatively beyond the reach of the masses.

Like, do you honestly believe it "costs" a Porsche so and so number of dollars then they add a small amount as margin ? BS. They shelf the product into a certain price range, almost independent of the cost of the product itself. Of course by default there must be greater quality in this product than the average corners-cut-mass-produced car. Rich people don't get rich by being stupid you know.

Then let's see this case I had in Strama...from the early 90's. It says "It takes 100 Corollas to reach the profit margin of 1 Lexus". Does it mean that Corollas don't have positive profit margins ? I don't think so or Toyota would be non-existent today. It just means that the profit-to-cost ratio of a Lexus is many times more than a Corolla.

So, Pricing and Quality are never linearly proportional (as many commenters have already pointed out) because...and I'll put this in bold text there are other things that you're paying for apart from the actual cost of the product.

Lemme share Jobet's definition of Marketing, which is not in the textbooks but I teach my students anyway.

"Marketing is the study and manipulation of the purchase psychology to influence the outcome of  transactions, or create profitable relationships. "

So pricing (and I might get killed for this) is not always based on COST. It is sometimes based on PERCEIVED VALUE. How a marketer studies and manipulates the purchase psychology to raise the perceived value...well...that is the essence of a guitar product marketer's job.  

[skunkyfunk]

what im telling is, if he claims something, prove it. iba un sa endorsements.

Actually, that pretty much is the geist of what I am saying.  

Alex is no Steve Vai who can endorse a Jemini which is essentially a knockoff of a TS9 and DS1 while I can demise that it is highly probable that he owns  a COT, TC Boost or some other boutique pedal, which he prefers more to the Jemini, which he will never publicly admit...

And his license... HIS FINGERS.  

On the contrary, Alex is no pro player.  Far from it.  But I think it is an irony that some seasoned pros  'cannot hear' what Alex hears.  It's either poverty makes you a bit deaf or prosperity enhances your metaphysical senses.  

[skunkyfunk]

So, Pricing and Quality are never linearly proportional (as many commenters have already pointed out) because...and I'll put this in bold text there are other things that you're paying for apart from the actual cost of the product.

Exactly BAMF.  I think I never really mentioned that pricing and quality is linearly proportional.  (I think I mentioned that earlier).  Maybe  Gene Baker's sig (because of his acquired skill  and knowledge) costs $3500/guitar while the actual cost is somewhere around $1000?  

But then again  I cannot discount the scams of jumping into the name game.  I've heard stories of HANDPICKED SIGNATURE GUITARS coming out far from impressive.  

[BAMF]

Exactly BAMF.  I think I never really mentioned that pricing and quality is linearly proportional.  (I think I mentioned that earlier).  Maybe  Gene Baker's sig (because of his acquired skill  and knowledge) costs $3500/guitar while the actual cost is somewhere around $1000?  

But then again  I cannot discount the scams of jumping into the name game.  I've heard stories of HANDPICKED SIGNATURE GUITARS coming out far from impressive.  

Of course dodj, I know you understand . For the benefit of lang, kumbaga

Lemme jump from here lang :

IMO, the real argument here is determining AT WHAT PRICE POINT DOES A  GUITAR START TO YIELD LESS IMPROVEMENTS? (I think we made a thread eons ago re: the law of diminishing returns and guitars

All my blah blah is just saying that THERE IS NO FIXED PRICE POINT WHERE A GUITAR WILL START TO YIELD LESS IMPROVEMENT (no rudeness meant dodj) because Pricing policies vary wildly and can be very "arbitrary". For instance, who's to say that Gene Baker is "worth" 2,500 of labor fees ? He arrives at that conclusion by himself either from experience, hearsay or what not. Otherwise he won't be charging that much in the first place.

If we further nitpick the essence of the question and attempt to add more precision, "how much less" improvement will define that point ? Parang Newton-iteration method baga...what level of error is acceptable. What amount of "less improvement" will fix that "converged point"? Hehehehe. Tama na nga maka-layas na.

[pitongjerome]

if he really does something with his guitar, im sure many would hear it.
we dont believe everything our guitar hero says right? ewan ko sa iba.

i dont have anything bad about his guitar . yes if you say he's not a pro player but he claims he can make that "sound" then let people hear. kung ung iba tinry nila pakinggan at wala sila naririnig, its either:

1. bingi
2. nagbibingibingihan
3. inggit sa expensive stuff at ayaw magpatalo

my point, let people hear what you are claiming, let them decide kung totoo nga un.

kasi ako, i may be hearing something that others dont, and they may be hearing something i dont. pero, hindi naman siguro sobrang malalayo ang mga pandinig natin diba? if i have the chance to listen to his nice guitar, i would love to. i praise something kung totoo ito and kapuri puri, hindi naman ako matakaw doon e.

[deltaslim]

So pricing (and I might get killed for this) is not always based on COST. It is sometimes based on PERCEIVED VALUE. How a marketer studies and manipulates the purchase psychology to raise the perceived value...well...that is the essence of a guitar product marketer's job.  

And if you look at auctions, the price of a product is however much a buyer THINKS it's worth. indeed, price or value is a reflection of the value system of the buyer, not an innate quality of the product.

Let's summarize:
- Production cost, craftsmanship, and physical quality are tangible and objectively verifiable attributes, and therefore less likely to be argued about
- Price is relative to the buyer. It's not directly correlated to production cost, craftsmanship, or physical quality of the product.
- Tone is intangible, subjective and hard to verify. As a result, this is often argued about. It's useless to hope for agreement on "tone quality".

I hope we avoid un-necessary discussions that rehash misconceptions about these issues.

Good stuff, guys.