There's no excuse for playing a bad cover....

[pedaldeaf3]

Hmm...

[guitarwiz02]

@Mintzkie009,

Bro, learn how to argue. Parang malabo ang mga sinasabi mo sa last post mo e. I'm not sure kung di mo lang talaga totally maintindihan or pinipilit mong 'di maintindihan e just for the sake of having an argument. Anyway, if that's it for you, then so be it. I've already said my piece and I've got nothing to explain further.

[perfectriff]

Three different players, one song (although jack's version is EJ's live version). all have taken the pains and time to play it correctly and be able to play it with emotion. I've seen a lot of players play this song and disrespect the actual song and masking their inability to play it correctly by saying "this is my version of..." when what it really means "this is the only way I can play it and so I'll call it "my version" so you'll think I can play it correctly but i just can't take the pains of learning it note for note" just to avoid the haters.

There's even some guys who get a backing track and just wank away and improvising over it, some sound good, some don't. And then post it on YouTube and say its "in the style of"

Now before i say my piece on them, let me just get it out in the open.... I cannot play guitar to save my life, thats how bad I am. I'm happy with my level of playing. My bedroom's happy with it, my wife well... errrr she loves me no matter what.

But, however good you think you are on improvising, if you cannot cover a song correctly (and channel feeling through that cover) you aint that good. It shows that you attempted to play something but you actually can't for whatever reason. Personally, I don't attempt at all. But that aside, I think this is one of the reasons why we have a proliferation of mediocre players everywhere. People just go ahead "improvising" their solos even with very little knowledge of theory and considerable technical skill and just try to pass themselves off as intermediate players. Some even go to the extent of posting a lesson or two probably to gain a sense of security in their own playing thinking that others would find their "betcha cant play this vid" interesting at least. I'm also blaming this sort of attitude for the decay of today's music.

My point is you just cant pick-up a dslr and pass yourself as a pro photographer, you can't just learn to use a stethoscope and call yourself a doctor, and you can just read the constitution and call yourself a lawyer, so why should anyone be able to pick-up the guitar and call themselves a guitarist?

Just a thought and a call-out to whoever thinks he can to please push the envelope and not accept mediocrity. As for me I have no choice but to be less than mediocre..

Here's another guy who can cover PG note for note and can improvise like crazy...

just some middle-of-the-night thoughts (instead of literally wanking off)

I think an edit of the first post is needed. readers could easily perceive this as a "note-for-note" vs. "improv." thread. I read my fist reply, and it's about n-p-n vs improv too.

maybe put, "Reminder, this is not a note-for-note VS improvisation thread but a ... thread." just suggesting.


I got the message of the thread. It's positive despite the negativity (first impression) implied by the title.

[challengeofthegobots]

I think an edit of the first post is needed. readers could easily perceive this as a "note-for-note" vs. "improv." thread. I read my fist reply, and it's about n-p-n vs improv too.

maybe put, "Reminder, this is not a note-for-note VS improvisation thread but a ... thread." just suggesting.


I got the message of the thread. It's positive despite the negativity (first impression) implied by the title.

will edit now... thanks for the suggestion

parang "Pak Pak My Doctor Quack"... provocative and eye catching dapat yung title

[iwi]

sabi nung nagreply bago sayo, "pwede na muna, sa ngayon" attitude which i think okay din.

para sa akin kasi ok naman ang "pwede na" attitude, kasi kung hindi talaga pwede eh syempre alam mo sa sarili mo na di talaga pwede.negative yung pag gamit sa phrase.

at hindi yata ako agree sa "pwede na muna, sa ngyon" attitude.kung ganyan kelan pa? kaya wag muna daw ihain kasi hilaw pa. parang gumawa ka ng bahay na hindi muna matibay sa ngayon kasi sa susunod nalang . pano kung lumindol ng malakas kinabukasan?

 

[perfectriff]

para sa akin kasi ok naman ang "pwede na" attitude, kasi kung hindi talaga pwede eh syempre alam mo sa sarili mo na di talaga pwede.negative yung pag gamit sa phrase.

at hindi yata ako agree sa "pwede na muna, sa ngyon" attitude.kung ganyan kelan pa? kaya wag muna daw ihain kasi hilaw pa. parang gumawa ka ng bahay na hindi muna matibay sa ngayon kasi sa susunod nalang . pano kung lumindol ng malakas kinabukasan?

 

sorry. ibig ko sabihin sa "pwede na muna sa ngayon" e ok lang na magpahinga ka. i meant it this way, 'don't push the envelope too hard in one sitting.' hindi ko ibig sabihin na it's ok to play a [cover] song live without doing it justice first. more on practice-related yung phrase.

sinabi ko to kasi gaya ng 99.9% ng members dito, gusto ko mag-improve (sorry TS, pero it seems to me that you've given up. Please correct me if i'm wrong). pero hindi ko naman pinipilit sarili ko  na 'i have to have it 90 - 99.9 or even 100% covered by today.' la din naman ako banda these days so no pressure sakin. pahinga kung medyo nafrufrustrate na dahil hindi makapa ang isang progression or solo phrasing.

ika nga, 'may bukas pa'

ang dating naman kai sakin nung 'pwede na' e parang ganito, "OK na yan, ganyan na lang." or "ge, adliban ko na lang tong part na to, hindi ko makuha e." na para sakin nawawalan ang isang player ng room for improvement.

in a nutshell, FOR ME:

pwede na =  "ge, adliban ko na lang tong part na to, hindi ko makuha e."

pwede na muna sa ngayon = "adliban ko MUNA tong part na to, mamaya/bukas ko na ulit aaralin"

again, that's just me. peace

well, that's just me.

[iwi]

pwede na muna sa ngayon = "adliban ko MUNA tong part na to, mamaya/bukas ko na ulit aaralin"

ah ok so kontento ka sa ganyan. ako hindi kasi nahihiya ako baka mali yung alam ko na skills pag nag-improvise.  - so hindi ko muna ihahain. 

[perfectriff]

ah ok so kontento ka sa ganyan. ako hindi kasi nahihiya ako baka mali yung alam ko na skills pag nag-improvise.  - so hindi ko muna ihahain. 

Yup. La naman ako banda ngayon e, so, bahay lang, 'kanto' jamming, and pag may outing lang tumutugtog. hehe.   
Dati naman nung may banda ako, we cover very few songs, more on compositions. At siyempre, we don't cover  song unless we really know it.

I guess it depends on the circumstances. 

[siore]

Hey, even if one's playing covers, there's a certain tolerance that's dependent on the skill and presentation.  If the audience is enjoying, or at least makes them order a few more drinks, then good!  If they start to frown, ask for their bill, and start to leave.. you know you've hit THAT level.   It's all in good entertainment, and that's what cover bands are about, right?

[burnsbhm]

Hey, even if one's playing covers, there's a certain tolerance that's dependent on the skill and presentation.  If the audience is enjoying, or at least makes them order a few more drinks, then good!  If they start to frown, ask for their bill, and start to leave.. you know you've hit THAT level.   It's all in good entertainment, and that's what cover bands are about, right?

Agree sir, our goal is to make sure the customers stay in the place and order more food and drinks. It doesn't mean that we don't focus on the music. Kaya nga sabi ko previously, being in a showband is a demanding discipline as much as a recording band. We are demanded to show utmost professionalism that's why we operate that way.

[arkeetar]

kakalungkot magbasa ng mga posts dito, tamang iba iba ng opinions,
parehas, gusto kong gumawa ng originals at covers, parehas ako natututo, pero sa mentalidad parati akong open makinig sa iba,
at depende sa feel, sa kasama, sa song(s), sa setup, sa gear... assess ko kung  ano ang pinaka mainam gawin, meron din akong limitasyon.

trip kong mag cover ang incubus saka bamboo ng mga songs may kakaiba, pero kung papakinggan may mga parts na binabago at parts na retained, may dinadagdag may binabawas,

ano naman kung magpost sa youtube ng bad cover at kung ano man reason nila, hanggang dun na lang ba yun para mag judge ng maganda or hindi... parating may room for improvement, time para mag practice at time mag aral.

may mga rules na pwedeng sundin at may mga rules na pwedeng break...

dati mentalidad ko, "uy! may mali sa ginagawa n'ya, mali yun ah" (pero ok naman pakinggan pero meron ding mga masasagwa haha)

so? sige lang... may room for improvement pa rin, mag cover ka lang, kung gusto mo mag note per note, pati feel kung kaya ba, sige lang,
kung hindi kaya... hindi mo na gagawin? wala kang karapatang mag post ng videos? kasi hindi mabibigyan ng justice? babaw naman ng reason nun... kung sino man nag iisip ng ganyan.

Agree sir, our goal is to make sure the customers stay in the place and order more food and drinks. It doesn't mean that we don't focus on the music. Kaya nga sabi ko previously, being in a showband is a demanding discipline as much as a recording band. We are demanded to show utmost professionalism that's why we operate that way.

mismo! gusto ko din mag try ng variety, hangga't kayang tumugtog 

[burnsbhm]

mismo! gusto ko din mag try ng variety, hangga't kayang tumugtog 

This is not meant to discourage you bro. But a lot of rockers I know (some of them mga kaidaran ko) quit being in showbands kasi hindi masikmura tumugtog ng Whitney Houston, Celine Dion, Michael Bolton, Tina Turner, Mariah Carey, etc....

This is another discipline in showbands - your mind will open to a lot of genres. From Sinatra, to Eddie Peregrina to Megadeth, you should play them all with equal conviction and enthusiasm.

If you are ready for this, then I wish you all the very best.

[mikki_blinkme]

kakalungkot magbasa ng mga posts dito, tamang iba iba ng opinions,
parehas, gusto kong gumawa ng originals at covers, parehas ako natututo, pero sa mentalidad parati akong open makinig sa iba,
at depende sa feel, sa kasama, sa song(s), sa setup, sa gear... assess ko kung  ano ang pinaka mainam gawin, meron din akong limitasyon.

trip kong mag cover ang incubus saka bamboo ng mga songs may kakaiba, pero kung papakinggan may mga parts na binabago at parts na retained, may dinadagdag may binabawas,

ano naman kung magpost sa youtube ng bad cover at kung ano man reason nila, hanggang dun na lang ba yun para mag judge ng maganda or hindi... parating may room for improvement, time para mag practice at time mag aral.

may mga rules na pwedeng sundin at may mga rules na pwedeng break...

dati mentalidad ko, "uy! may mali sa ginagawa n'ya, mali yun ah" (pero ok naman pakinggan pero meron ding mga masasagwa haha)

so? sige lang... may room for improvement pa rin, mag cover ka lang, kung gusto mo mag note per note, pati feel kung kaya ba, sige lang,
kung hindi kaya... hindi mo na gagawin? wala kang karapatang mag post ng videos? kasi hindi mabibigyan ng justice? babaw naman ng reason nun... kung sino man nag iisip ng ganyan.

mismo! gusto ko din mag try ng variety, hangga't kayang tumugtog 

mismo ang lahat ng ito. cheers sir arkeetar!

[matanglawin]

like tone, good and bad "cover" playing is subjective. 

[mikki_blinkme]

like tone, good and bad "cover" playing is subjective. 

mismo! pero para sa iba..... ewan... di na lang ako magsasalita... 

[arkeetar]

This is not meant to discourage you bro. But a lot of rockers I know (some of them mga kaidaran ko) quit being in showbands kasi hindi masikmura tumugtog ng Whitney Houston, Celine Dion, Michael Bolton, Tina Turner, Mariah Carey, etc....

This is another discipline in showbands - your mind will open to a lot of genres. From Sinatra, to Eddie Peregrina to Megadeth, you should play them all with equal conviction and enthusiasm.

If you are ready for this, then I wish you all the very best.

may mga kakilala din akong mga nasa showband/variety, at tipong magagaling talaga,
at dun ko nakita at natutunan yung "disiplina at lawak ng pag iisip"
"rocker" hehe
sa dami ng pinapakinggan ko, hindi ako rocker, pero mas marami lang akong gustong "heavy songs" compare sa mga pop, (hindi na rin ako sure) basta hindi ako nag stick sa isang genre lang

nasa lineup nga namin ngayon "respect" saka saving all my love for you, pero walang keyboard 

[challengeofthegobots]

kakalungkot magbasa ng mga posts dito, tamang iba iba ng opinions,
parehas, gusto kong gumawa ng originals at covers, parehas ako natututo, pero sa mentalidad parati akong open makinig sa iba,
at depende sa feel, sa kasama, sa song(s), sa setup, sa gear... assess ko kung  ano ang pinaka mainam gawin, meron din akong limitasyon.

trip kong mag cover ang incubus saka bamboo ng mga songs may kakaiba, pero kung papakinggan may mga parts na binabago at parts na retained, may dinadagdag may binabawas,

ano naman kung magpost sa youtube ng bad cover at kung ano man reason nila, hanggang dun na lang ba yun para mag judge ng maganda or hindi... parating may room for improvement, time para mag practice at time mag aral.

may mga rules na pwedeng sundin at may mga rules na pwedeng break...

dati mentalidad ko, "uy! may mali sa ginagawa n'ya, mali yun ah" (pero ok naman pakinggan pero meron ding mga masasagwa haha)

so? sige lang... may room for improvement pa rin, mag cover ka lang, kung gusto mo mag note per note, pati feel kung kaya ba, sige lang,
kung hindi kaya... hindi mo na gagawin? wala kang karapatang mag post ng videos? kasi hindi mabibigyan ng justice? babaw naman ng reason nun... kung sino man nag iisip ng ganyan.

mismo! gusto ko din mag try ng variety, hangga't kayang tumugtog 

sir, linawain ko lang ulit kasi hindi po yan ang gusto kong ipahiwatig nung simulan ko ang thread na ito. Baka mag-spark na naman ng debateng makakasideline sa essence ng thread na ito.

iba yung "hindi kaya" sa pangit. kung "hindi kaya" maslalo mo dapat gawin, pero kung pangit, paggandahin mo at huwag mong ilagay sa isip mo na "makakabola na ito"

I only started this thread to encourage people to push their playing further. And discouraging them from complacency or "pwede na".

Paulit lang po, at hindi po ako magsasawang sabihin ito.

1. A bad cover is a bad cover regardless of anyone's definition, kasi subjective nga di ba? Pero nag-post ka ng video of a cover na alam mo hindi pa pasado sa standards (maski kaninong standard ba yan sarili mo o sa iba, basta alam mong hindi pa pasado), then you are saying you cannot play a good cover, because if you could then you would have posted the good one di ba? That's ok sige karapatan mo yan e walang pumipigil sayo, pero huwag mong lagyan ng caption na "This is my version, hope you enjoy it!"... Sinong binola mo? Pwede pa yung "This is how I can play it now, comments and suggestions welcome". Huwag mong lokohin yung sarili mo thinking kung makakabola ka at iisipin ng iba na magaling ka na e magaling ka na nga. Si Firemodel55 ka ba? Magaling ka lang kung magaling ka na. Ano yung magaling? Ibang topic na yan, may kanya kanya tayong pananaw dyan at pagusapan na lang sa ibang thread. Pero ang sinasabi ko dito e mainly yung attitude mo sa pag-cover. Paano ka magiiprove kung dinadaya mo lang sarili mo?

2. A good cover does not have to be note for note but it has to be faithful. Get that guitarwiz? Its been explained several times not just by me but by several others. Paki-back read lang po. Sige, given na subjective ang good and bad covers and faithfulness may differ in definition across several people, but if you know it to be bad and/or unfaithful at the moment, pangangalandakan mo pa rin bang "here's my version of this song, enjoy!"

yun lang naman yun e, marami lang nasaktan kung papapaano ko sinabi or tinamaan dahil sapul sa kanila yung mga example na binigay ko.

[matanglawin]

Gobots, I think we've established that the "good" and "bad" here is based on your standards.  Don't get me wrong, I agree with you partially on the aspect that there those who really play bad, but there are those who play covers they way they know it.  To you, it may sound bad, because you know the note per note aspect of the cover.  To the general audience, it doesn't really matter.

[challengeofthegobots]

Gobots, I think we've established that the "good" and "bad" here is based on your standards.  Don't get me wrong, I agree with you partially on the aspect that there those who really play bad, but there are those who play covers they way they know it.  To you, it may sound bad, because you know the note per note aspect of the cover.  To the general audience, it doesn't really matter.

How'd you establish that? On the contrary, I've been very explicit by saying "your own standards" or "regardless of whoever's standards" and deflect the thought of this not being about me, but about changing attitudes.

We're musicians helping each other out, that's why we go on forums, we're not the general audience. Unless you say you are.

[matanglawin]

How'd you establish that? On the contrary, I've been very explicit by saying "your own standards" or "regardless of whoever's standards" and deflect the thought of this not being about me, but about changing attitudes.

We're musicians helping each other out, that's why we go on forums, we're not the general audience. Unless you say you are.

But, we don't necessarily play for each other, now do we?  A musician, in the general sense, plays for himself first, then for an audience.  A musician will basically attune himself to what he thinks sounds good, and practice until he's reached a limit.  He then practices more to go beyond that limit.

Hence, everything you've said so far is based on your standards.  It may sound bad to you, but, for the musician on stage, it's good for him.  If the audience then appreciates it.

don't getme wrong, there's a baseline somewhere.  Yours might just be too high for everyone else, or at least, of a different lane altogether.  And, personally, I'd say I still aim to improving myself because I know I'm not good enough.

Get it?

[challengeofthegobots]

But, we don't necessarily play for each other, now do we?  A musician, in the general sense, plays for himself first, then for an audience.  A musician will basically attune himself to what he thinks sounds good, and practice until he's reached a limit.  He then practices more to go beyond that limit.

Hence, everything you've said so far is based on your standards.  It may sound bad to you, but, for the musician on stage, it's good for him.  If the audience then appreciates it.

don't getme wrong, there's a baseline somewhere.  Yours might just be too high for everyone else, or at least, of a different lane altogether.  And, personally, I'd say I still aim to improving myself because I know I'm not good enough.

Get it?

Please quote which post I have stated a standard that is "too high for everyone else, or at least, of a different lane altogether".

Yes we don't necessarily play for each other.

And yes a person plays for himself first. That is exactly where I'm driving at, raise your standards for yourself and meet it before showing it to an audience. Unless your intention is to solicit advice from a particular audience. In both cases, do not try to pass off what you know to be bad as something good.

Take this for example. You have a product (your cover or any thing you play) and you (NOT ME but you, yourself) know and feel it to be substandard, would you sell the product and say "Buy this, this product is really good!" or would you "Buy this! As is where is!"?

get it?

[matanglawin]

But, however good you think you are on improvising, if you cannot cover a song correctly (and channel feeling through that cover) you aint that good. It shows that you attempted to play something but you actually can't for whatever reason. Personally, I don't attempt at all. But that aside, I think this is one of the reasons why we have a proliferation of mediocre players everywhere. People just go ahead "improvising" their solos even with very little knowledge of theory and considerable technical skill and just try to pass themselves off as intermediate players. Some even go to the extent of posting a lesson or two probably to gain a sense of security in their own playing thinking that others would find their "betcha cant play this vid" interesting at least. I'm also blaming this sort of attitude for the decay of today's music.

My point is you just cant pick-up a dslr and pass yourself as a pro photographer, you can't just learn to use a stethoscope and call yourself a doctor, and you can just read the constitution and call yourself a lawyer, so why should anyone be able to pick-up the guitar and call themselves a guitarist?

Just a thought and a call-out to whoever thinks he can to please push the envelope and not accept mediocrity. As for me I have no choice but to be less than mediocre..

The first post alone, that statement screams high standard.  Don't tell me, as your "audience" we've misread that.  Having no choice but "to be less than mediocre" is a deflection.  You keep saying it's not about improvising, but, how can you differentiate one who's doing a bad cover from one who's improvising?  That's nitpicking in any aspect.  The audience wouldn't know the difference at all.  

Here, you're "preaching to the choir," so to speak.  

[matanglawin]

I posted this at the other GC thread:

"A good guitar player can imitate anyone.  A great guitar player cannot be imitated."

[challengeofthegobots]

The first post alone, that statement screams high standard.  Don't tell me, as your "audience" we've misread that.  Having no choice but "to be less than mediocre" is a deflection.  You keep saying it's not about improvising, but, how can you differentiate one who's doing a bad cover from one who's improvising?  That's nitpicking in any aspect.  The audience wouldn't know the difference at all.  

Here, you're "preaching to the choir," so to speak.  

high. but not too high. thats one of the points of this thread. to be not mediocre and push playing levels higher. not everybody in the choir is at the same level. there are stars and regular members and choir master's daughters. and if you need to know how a bad cover differs from improvising then maybe you can benefit from learning how to do a song properly.

"A good guitar player can imitate anyone.  A great guitar player cannot be imitated." But before you become great you first need to become good. And yes the pieces of great players cannot be imitated 100% but you can however get to at least a passing mark of 75%, why settle for 65%? As with anything in life, everyone deserves a shot at something better. Why would you want to settle for less?

[kimBuhain]

sa mga gitarista,.magpakatotoo na tayo,.

a good cover is "plakado",. and i must admit na astig kapag ganun

now you can get away with your flaws or you limitations by just saying "here is my version of,."
ibang usap pa ang improvisation dun,.

pero kung kaya mo nga naman gumaling pa,.bakit hindi diba,.

what i mean is GUMALING in a way na
"dadagan mo pa ang vocabulary ng mga chords mo,.music theory,.technique"

may mga players naman na ok na sila sa playing nila on whatever LEVEL

meron naman na niloloko ang sarili at sinasabing ok na sila,pero deep inside gusto pa nila "gumaling"
pero tinatago na lang nila yun sa mga statement na "here is my version of..."

IMVHO