Is it my ears, or my brain?

[skunkyfunk]

I really hate the loud mastering trend.
Much worse is when a band wants a loud master but can't afford a mastering house.
The worst is when you are compelled to finalize your mixes at uber-compressed loud volumes that go to "Californication" territory. 
So since the client is always right, I budged.

Anyway, what is it about making your mixes into a square block that makes me get tired so easily?  Listening fatigue they call it.  At the point of exhaustion, my sonic judgments start to diminish.  Is this normal?  Is it my brain that's not working by then?  How come I can do with mixing even for 8 straight hours but once I am asked to louden up the mix I can't stand the next 3 hours?

[abyssinianson]

Its your brain. Your ears are receptors (a group of receptors, accurately put) that are like machines and there is a threshold point of efficiency.

Why would you mix for 8 hours straight?

[KitC]

On the bright side, make enough square waveforms that your converters are putting out enough DC signals, and hence their amps, that you might fry a tweeter or 2 as revenge. 

[abyssinianson]

@Kit: oh so harsh!!! I hope to God these guys aren't listening to their stuff through Genelecs, Dynaudio or ADAMs. Destructive mixing would really catch their attention!

[markthevirtuoso]

I really hate the loud mastering trend.
Much worse is when a band wants a loud master but can't afford a mastering house.
The worst is when you are compelled to finalize your mixes at uber-compressed loud volumes that go to "Californication" territory. 
So since the client is always right, I budged.

Anyway, what is it about making your mixes into a square block that makes me get tired so easily?  Listening fatigue they call it.  At the point of exhaustion, my sonic judgments start to diminish.  Is this normal?  Is it my brain that's not working by then?  How come I can do with mixing even for 8 straight hours but once I am asked to louden up the mix I can't stand the next 3 hours?

Gaya ng sabi ni Abyss, it's your brain.

How loud do you go when you're mixing with it, though?

Some pointer,

at 85 dB (SPL if not mistaken), maximum exposure is 8 hours. Beyond that your brain won't be able to handle what your ears are perceiving. Your ears will be damaged as well.

so in analogy,

there might be a point in these dB levels (lower than 85 dB) where your brain can only allow you to work at a maxiumum of 3 hours.

[BALDO]

actually i think its both.. the anvils and stapes on the ears gets fatigued from the steady stream of stimuli applied on the ears to the point that you get EAR FATIGUED. the auditory nerves get flooded with sound that it can't distinguish the quality of the sound it hears. the brain then analyzes the sound it hears and also gets fooled by what the ear and auditory nerves present. Skunky i actually did a long session of mixing to the point that i did have auditory hallucinations even long after the session. HEARING things without any stimuli is i think the worst thing that can happen if you push the limit. 
i recommend pauses after a few hours and ICE applied on the bony side of the ear and in the outer ear always helps..

[abyssinianson]

actually i think its both.. the anvils and stapes on the ears gets fatigued from the steady stream of stimuli applied on the ears to the point that you get EAR FATIGUED. the auditory nerves get flooded with sound that it can't distinguish the quality of the sound it hears. the brain then analyzes the sound it hears and also gets fooled by what the ear and auditory nerves present. Skunky i actually did a long session of mixing to the point that i did have auditory hallucinations even long after the session. HEARING things without any stimuli is i think the worst thing that can happen if you push the limit. 
i recommend pauses after a few hours and ICE applied on the bony side of the ear and in the outer ear always helps..

some corrections, if I may, just to set things straight so you are getting the pathophysiology right.
-your outer ear bones do not get fatigue. damage, yes. your auditory neurons are the pathways that get saturated in hearing fatigue. there is a point where respones to auditory stimulation is so irregular and abberrant that the difference between frequncies and intensities of sound get blurred and all you hear is a blanket of "noise." abnormal and constant firing after a specific resting period, and even at random times when you haven't been exposed to loud noise, is indicative of hearing damage. that constant ringing? if that goes on often, for too long,  and randomly, that says something bad.

-pause from excessive mixing is good and silence in between sessions is advisable. a cold pack on your head? unless you have a fever FROM mixing, I can't imagine that would do anything to help allay your listening fatigue. turn off the music, get away from the mixing console to read something or spend time in the bathroom to gather your thoughts.

[KitC]

I usually take a break every 45 to 60 minutes of mixing and I sometimes return to a mix a few days later (if possible). I usually notice a few things but none too distracting that it renders the original mix unusable. Usually, it's 'that cymbal crash is a tad loud' or 'I could move that hit just a little bit ahead'... nothing that would really sink the boat.

[BALDO]

you don't need to have a fever just to use ice for relief. muscle strains benefits from ice packs, tonsillectomy cases. try it especially if you use a headphone for a long long time... once you do, just tell me if it works..it did for me. 

[abyssinianson]

no need for the ice pack for the headphone pain relief. I don't mix with headphones, I track with ém. Tracking usually done with a few passes, comping where I need to.

[xjepoyx]

i usually take a nap after during breaktime on mixing. why? because if i dont... sounds of all intruments will still play on my head and i will be heading back to work right away.

[eders19]

I really hate the loud mastering trend.
Much worse is when a band wants a loud master but can't afford a mastering house.
The worst is when you are compelled to finalize your mixes at uber-compressed loud volumes that go to "Californication" territory. 
So since the client is always right, I budged.

Anyway, what is it about making your mixes into a square block that makes me get tired so easily?  Listening fatigue they call it.  At the point of exhaustion, my sonic judgments start to diminish.  Is this normal?  Is it my brain that's not working by then?  How come I can do with mixing even for 8 straight hours but once I am asked to louden up the mix I can't stand the next 3 hours?


sorry for the question but what do you mean by loud mastering trend?

[optiplex]

sorry for the question but what do you mean by loud mastering trend?

Loud mastering takes the life out of the music.  A recorded music without the dynamic range. Stops me from buying CDs.

Watch this:

The Loudness War

Some links below:

-----------------------------------------------
Mastering Engineers Debate Music's Loudness Wars
The Big Squeeze

By Sarah Jones

http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_big_squeeze/
---------------------------------------------
Declaring an end to the loudness wars

http://www.barrydiamentaudio.com/loudness.htm

---------------------------------------------
What Happened To Dynamic Range?
By
Bob Speer

http://www.cdmasteringservices.com/dynamicrange.htm
--------------------------------------------

http://www.moultonlabs.com/index.php/more/taming_wild_mastering_levels/
http://www.moultonlabs.com/more/taming_wild_mastering_levels/P1/
-------------------------------------------

The Death Of Dynamic Range
http://www.cdmasteringservices.com/dynamicdeath.htm
--------------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

[skunkyfunk]

sorry for the question but what do you mean by loud mastering trend?

Loud mastering takes the life out of the music.  A recorded music without the dynamic range. Stops me from buying CDs.

Watch this:

The Loudness War

Some links below:

-----------------------------------------------
Mastering Engineers Debate Music's Loudness Wars
The Big Squeeze

By Sarah Jones

http://mixonline.com/mag/audio_big_squeeze/
---------------------------------------------
Declaring an end to the loudness wars

http://www.barrydiamentaudio.com/loudness.htm

---------------------------------------------
What Happened To Dynamic Range?
By
Bob Speer

http://www.cdmasteringservices.com/dynamicrange.htm
--------------------------------------------

http://www.moultonlabs.com/index.php/more/taming_wild_mastering_levels/
http://www.moultonlabs.com/more/taming_wild_mastering_levels/P1/
-------------------------------------------

The Death Of Dynamic Range
http://www.cdmasteringservices.com/dynamicdeath.htm
--------------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

Nice links!  Thanks.  Your first post is great!

Anyway, I just listened to Californication lately.  Oh my; atrocious!  You can actually see almost square waveforms in the peaks... 

[eders19]

interesting! thanks for the links!  i have another set of questions:

1.) usually, at what level do you set the volumes of your final mixes (before it goes to mastering)?

2.) whenever i do my mixes, i usually place a psp vintage warmer then a light setting oof L2 . is that advisable? or is it too much?

i know that i can find the answers online but i'm just curious as to what you think

[optiplex]

The recommended level AFTER mastering :

The maximum RMS level of the disc does not exceed -12dB

[optiplex]

Below are 2 waveforms, Artists: U2

1. Where the Streets have no Name


2. Vertigo

My preference is number 1.

[xjepoyx]

nice input optilex.


welcome to philmusic.

are you an audio engineer also?

[optiplex]

Last year, I purchased  the debut album of a Pinoy rock band. Totally unlistenable at any volume level. Looking at the waveform of track 1:



Sayang ang pera. Now, i am very hesitant to buy any OPM band CDs .  But looking at this thread, I see HOPE.

[optiplex]

nice input optilex.

welcome to philmusic.

are you an audio engineer also?

Thank you.

Not an audio engineer, just a music enthusiast

[starfugger]

hmmm, wonder if it's possible to outlaw over-limiting  if it were ever illegal to limit beyond decent levels then dynamic range might be en vogue again.

[abyssinianson]

Last year, I purchased  the debut album of a Pinoy rock band. Totally unlistenable at any volume level. Looking at the waveform of track 1:



Sayang ang pera. Now, i am very hesitant to buy any OPM band CDs .  But looking at this thread, I see HOPE.

3 things:

1. "The Streets With No Name" track was originally done on tape which, by nature, sounds much more forgiving and fatter than its digital counterpart. Digital versus analog. This war has been waged for years and, to me, 2 -inch tape still sounds louder than a digital master. These days, digitally remastered tracks are usually brought up to spec to match your "horrid" square waveform mastered tracks.

2. The mastering "trend" is mainly directed at mastering engineers who believe that over-limiting would benefit the track. Found mainly on commercial tracks, this "trend" is not apparent on ALL contemporary tracks. As such, referring to over limiting as a trend is a fragmented point of opinion, at best. There are still a lot of good tracks out there that are not mastered as loud.

3. With regards to the OPM rock band, who did the mastering? The reason I am asking is this: there is a misunderstanding between "mastering" a track yourself and having it done by a PROPER mastering engineer, who uses mastering outboard gear, in a mastering suite designed to properly spec a set of tracks. Now, if I got a buck for everytime I saw an OPM CD that lists the recording engineer, mixing guy and mastering guy all in the same breath, that gives me a reason to be skeptical about the audio treatment of the resulting piece. Why? How do you know the guy isn't doing his "mastering" in a garage with concrete walls on a pair of headphones? Case in point: Backyard Project Studios in Cebu. The guy gets a lot of pretty high profile music but the facility, from what I hear, is far from what one would conventionally call "conducive" to proper mastering processes. Nonetheless, I hear the eatery food is top notch, especially the barbecue.

If the track really is as unlistenable at any level then I imagine the mixing engineer either has a bad case of hearing infection, or doesn't know jack sh*t about making his clients sound as good as they should.

As always, these thoughts are my 2 cents, and based on peronal opinion, observation and experience.

[skunkyfunk]

The recommended level AFTER mastering :

The maximum RMS level of the disc does not exceed -12dB

That's sad because NOW, the average level is -8dBFS TO -6dbFS.

[skunkyfunk]

Last year, I purchased  the debut album of a Pinoy rock band. Totally unlistenable at any volume level. Looking at the waveform of track 1:



Sayang ang pera. Now, i am very hesitant to buy any OPM band CDs .  But looking at this thread, I see HOPE.

3 things:

1. "The Streets With No Name" track was originally done on tape which, by nature, sounds much more forgiving and fatter than its digital counterpart. Digital versus analog. This war has been waged for years and, to me, 2 -inch tape still sounds louder than a digital master. These days, digitally remastered tracks are usually brought up to spec to match your "horrid" square waveform mastered tracks.

2. The mastering "trend" is mainly directed at mastering engineers who believe that over-limiting would benefit the track. Found mainly on commercial tracks, this "trend" is not apparent on ALL contemporary tracks. As such, referring to over limiting as a trend is a fragmented point of opinion, at best. There are still a lot of good tracks out there that are not mastered as loud.

3. With regards to the OPM rock band, who did the mastering? The reason I am asking is this: there is a misunderstanding between "mastering" a track yourself and having it done by a PROPER mastering engineer, who uses mastering outboard gear, in a mastering suite designed to properly spec a set of tracks. Now, if I got a buck for everytime I saw an OPM CD that lists the recording engineer, mixing guy and mastering guy all in the same breath, that gives me a reason to be skeptical about the audio treatment of the resulting piece. Why? How do you know the guy isn't doing his "mastering" in a garage with concrete walls on a pair of headphones? Case in point: Backyard Project Studios in Cebu. The guy gets a lot of pretty high profile music but the facility, from what I hear, is far from what one would conventionally call "conducive" to proper mastering processes. Nonetheless, I hear the eatery food is top notch, especially the barbecue.

If the track really is as unlistenable at any level then I imagine the mixing engineer either has a bad case of hearing infection, or doesn't know jack sh*t about making his clients sound as good as they should.

As always, these thoughts are my 2 cents, and based on peronal opinion, observation and experience.

Hahahaha!  Urbandub's albums suck...  from a sonic standpoint. 

You know what makes it difficult for mixing engineers?  Instead of not being bothered about squashing your mixes, you have to further compress your final mixes to give you an idea how they would sound AFTER the squashed-mastering process.  Ika nga, "you can hear a pin drop...".  Worse of all, the bearable noises like guitar hum become so apparent!  The natural reverb tails get corrupted too!  What's worse is that there is no mastering facility here that I know can really compete with say, Masterdisc...

[abyssinianson]

I have beef to pick with the mixing of the Urbandub record because it is one of those notorious "mixing engineer/recording engineer/mastering engineer" type of projects. I LOVE the song writing on the records but - the sound - the sound could be so much more flattered by better recording and mixing techniques. Someone told me that none of the guitar sounds on the album were ever miked and I can believe it. I have no problem with a DI miked guitar (because it CAN be done tastefully) but I don't know why the mixing engineer became so complacent with the fizzy sound that eventually made it onto the record.

Hopefully, someone can better provide a service to these types of up and coming acts so they have a better idea of how a better sound can be achieved by relatively modest DAW equipment. Until then, I am holding my breath...

@Kit, it would be interesting if Shinji's place got a chance to record and mix a guitar oriented band like Urbandub. I know you mentioned that Shinji just recorded a few bands, including Cueshe, but I don't have a disc to A/B Cueshe's result with Urbandub's mix and recording work. Cueshe doesn't do huge guitar sounds, do they? Shinji's facility and iso rooms would probably work much better in recording a nice huge guitar sound than what Urbandub did to attain the guitar sounds on their last cut.