The Fletcher-Munson Effect (& why the big divide among guitar modellers vs.amps)

[skunkyfunk]

btw, skunky, isn't this whole "modeler vs. tube amp for recording" debate kyna pointless when you settle on 'inspiration' as the reason why guitarists should use tube amps vs. modelers in a studio? 

It is not pointless if guitarplayers want to choose between an amp and an amp sim.  It is pointless though if the guitarplayer wants a POD and nothing more.

it's like throwing a very subjective variable like "love" into a mathematical formula. 

So now here's someone equating math to getting a particular sound for recording.  You need to love a sound to get it.  An engineer at some point, should try to put himself in the guitarplayer's shoes, with his studio engineering brains to get the sound.

i was hoping you geeks stick to the tech-talk and let ignorant romantics like me say, "At the end of the day, kanya kanya lang yan!" 

Kanya-kanyang preference po, pero para sa aming mga nagrerecording, mahirap yan kasi walang isang template or "one size fits all" na approach para lahat ng may kanya-kanyang gusto ay maging masaya.  Kaya po, ang solusyon, ay amps or amp sims.  Pero ang namimiss ng karamihan ay ang paggamit ng amps dahil walang amp sa studio, na maaaring magbigay ng mas magandang resulta sa recording. 

Yes there is a difference cuz, as I've been saying, they are apples and oranges.  Use the tool that does the job cost-effectively. 

So using a Deluxe Reverb sim and a Deluxe Reverb is Apples and Oranges?  Or is it  a bad apple vs. a good apple?  You own a Deluxe Reverb right?  Answer honestly.  Kung sa bagay you said use the tool that does the job cost-effectively.  If that is the case, you are not all for tone, but for convenience.  And recording, sad to say, is not about convenience per se, but trying to make a legacy out of your art so make sure you get the best sounds on record.

If you're just referring to pure tone: yes, there is a difference and my findings have been different at different situations for different PODs and amps.  There's one time I hated my POD2 cuz it didn't sound good through the PA in a live rehearsal situation.  But it sounded great and better than I could ever make my tube amps sound for a PC recording. 

Because recording amps can be a pain in the butt.  And that is the discipline you learn when you start recording amps.  It is like training yourself to be the best photographer during the least picturesque moments.  And I am not surprised that you seem to get better results using the POD because it's a no-brainer.  But once you try doing some nuances in some guitar lines like rolling off the volume back and forth, that's when you notice that the POD is still less better than an amp.

Why not make the assumption, for the sake of moving the discussion forward, that the artist is inspired, or is at a certain level of inspiration, regardless whether POD or tube is used, and then discuss the differences in objective terms?

I'm more of a "means to an end" guy than a "end justifies the means" type.

Thanks for sharing yours, Alroy. I'm not too hip on the technical aspects of recording but I do use my ears as a guide so my assessment would be very analog: "sounds great", "sounds ok", "ugh!".  ganun!

We hear things differently, but as an engineer, it is his right to ward off any act that can ruin his reputation.  For the record, I would doubt that the average Juan Dela Cruz would care about PODs and real amps, but that's not how music affects people.  It is all about making the best production to serve the songs so that they can convey the songs' messages correctly.  Now, that doesn't mean that we should lose sight of production simply because "it's all about the song, and song is king..." type of argument.

[skunkyfunk]

Simple lang ang punto at sinabi ko na sa taas.  Di ko magets ang punto ng discussion kung moving target ang issue.  Una FM, then FM in live vs recording situations, then POD vs. modeller, tapos napunta ka sa "necessary ang tube amp sa studio for inspiration which you can't get out of a POD." What is YOUR point?

1.  The FM phenomenon is manifested by different levels of loudness.  Some amps are loud, some are soft. 
2.  Since each and every amp has its own level of loudness, and timbre, the way one guitarplayer gets inspired is different from another.  One might be fired up in a recording situation with a loud half-stack (paging Manny Amador) but for someone doing blues like you, that would be irritating loud volume (timbre aside).
3.  Since volume has a bearing on the guitarplayer, using something that is way softer than the volume he's used to can adversely affect his performance/
4.  For the engineer, the volume doesn't matter for as long as he can tame the volume through his mic preamps and whatnot. 
5.  The problem with #4 though, is that some things that you hear in a loud amp cannot be heard through monitors, which is why some think an amp is "muddy" when in fact, by boosting the monitors to high levels, that is when you notice the sizzle in the amp speakers being captured by the mics.
6.  PODs and similar devices are nothing more but models of an amp being miked, and there are response and volume issues which they cannot address.
7.  I am not anti-POD.  I am more of "anti-by default and 95% of the time you should use POD".

Hay naku... sana nga dumating na yang Spider Valve...  I'm not anti-digital either.

[deltaslim]

It is not pointless if guitarplayers want to choose between an amp and an amp sim.  It is pointless though if the guitarplayer wants a POD and nothing more.
So now here's someone equating math to getting a particular sound for recording.  You need to love a sound to get it.  An engineer at some point, should try to put himself in the guitarplayer's shoes, with his studio engineering brains to get the sound.
Kanya-kanyang preference po, pero para sa aming mga nagrerecording, mahirap yan kasi walang isang template or "one size fits all" na approach para lahat ng may kanya-kanyang gusto ay maging masaya.  Kaya po, ang solusyon, ay amps or amp sims.  Pero ang namimiss ng karamihan ay ang paggamit ng amps dahil walang amp sa studio, na maaaring magbigay ng mas magandang resulta sa recording. 

So using a Deluxe Reverb sim and a Deluxe Reverb is Apples and Oranges?  Or is it  a bad apple vs. a good apple?  You own a Deluxe Reverb right?  Answer honestly.  Kung sa bagay you said use the tool that does the job cost-effectively.  If that is the case, you are not all for tone, but for convenience.  And recording, sad to say, is not about convenience per se, but trying to make a legacy out of your art so make sure you get the best sounds on record.

Because recording amps can be a pain in the butt.  And that is the discipline you learn when you start recording amps.  It is like training yourself to be the best photographer during the least picturesque moments.  And I am not surprised that you seem to get better results using the POD because it's a no-brainer.  But once you try doing some nuances in some guitar lines like rolling off the volume back and forth, that's when you notice that the POD is still less better than an amp.
I'm more of a "means to an end" guy than a "end justifies the means" type.
We hear things differently, but as an engineer, it is his right to ward off any act that can ruin his reputation.  For the record, I would doubt that the average Juan Dela Cruz would care about PODs and real amps, but that's not how music affects people.  It is all about making the best production to serve the songs so that they can convey the songs' messages correctly.  Now, that doesn't mean that we should lose sight of production simply because "it's all about the song, and song is king..." type of argument.

Haaay... this is just all sad, skunky.  Walang pupuntahan talaga ang usapang to kung di naman nagkakaintindihan.  You're off-tanget to just about everything I have to say so I'll give it a rest.  You could have taken my original comment constructively and refocused the discussion on your topic but you chose to make IT (starring ME!) the topic instead.

Pero regarding your equally sad allegation that I don't care for tone, here's something that can be empirically verified:

If A does the job and costs $100, but B does the job just as well but costs $10, then B is said to be more cost-effective than A. 

Gets mo na?  Yes, I'm a cheap bastard... but because of basic business principles like cost-effectiveness, I'm a cheap AND smart bastard.

[astrobog]

Mother of God...i didn't look at this thread because I thought it was a theoretical discussion, turns out it wasn't. Kit, where is that pop corn?

But seriously, if the job of an engineer is to provide options and you have options to do the providing then, what is the problem? Have the guy pick an amp, a guitar, a chair, mic your amp, monitor, repeat tweaking if necessary. The way I see it, the problem should focus on the actual usage of the stuff you DO have access to instead of doing a rhetorical analysis of whether or not it is subjectively sound to say a tube amp is better than a ss digital amp. Got both? Use em. Don't got 'em? use what you got. Tubes aren't going anywhere and neither are digital amps because someone, somewhere is going to use them for some song in some record. In fact, I don't really think using one over the other makes a mountain of a difference if the result rocks, sells records and gets a happy client in the end.

haha abbys, ganon din iniisip ko, kaya "i didn't look at this thread" din.. akala ko tapos na tong usapan, 10 pages na naman..
Mag-dicuss kayo tungkol sa mas creative na bagay!...

shinji

[skunkyfunk]

If A does the job and costs $100, but B does the job just as well but costs $10, then B is said to be more cost-effective than A. 

Gets mo na?  Yes, I'm a cheap bastard... but because of basic business principles like cost-effectiveness, I'm a cheap AND smart bastard.

Yes, but the $10 piece of gear is not necessarily the "POD".  You can rent out stuff you know.  Or the magic word... "Peram ng amp mo."

[abyssinianson]

If A does the job and costs $100, but B does the job just as well but costs $10, then B is said to be more cost-effective than A. 

Gets mo na?  Yes, I'm a cheap bastard... but because of basic business principles like cost-effectiveness, I'm a cheap AND smart bastard.

Hey, if it works, it works. If I could have spent less money of the outboard gear I got at the studio and STILL have the sound that I want, why not spend less? I ain't about to be an idiot and spend more money than I have to...

I think the main point of this series of posts got lost in the fray...wait...was there one? I forget. *goes back to munching on popcorn*

[skunkyfunk]

Hey, if it works, it works. If I could have spent less money of the outboard gear I got at the studio and STILL have the sound that I want, why not spend less? I ain't about to be an idiot and spend more money than I have to...

I think the main point of this series of posts got lost in the fray...wait...was there one? I forget. *goes back to munching on popcorn*

Kasi po, kung cost-efficiency rin lang ang pinag-uusapan, huwag na tayo magbayad ng studio kung DI lang naman gagawin natin.  Eh di bumili ka na lang ng Pocket POD for $129 or kahit 2nd hand POD.  Use it with your home PC.  No pressure with recording time.  Now that is cost-efficiency.

[abyssinianson]

Yes, but the $10 piece of gear is not necessarily the "POD".  You can rent out stuff you know.  Or the magic word... "Peram ng amp mo."

POD, solid state or tube - I think Delta's point was that being cost effective to get a job DONE calls for using whatever piece of gear you have access to without spending money to make a great recording. If a cheaper piece of gear does the job just as well as an expensive one, why not use it? You can nit pick this mofo all you want and delve into the details but the fact remains: what purpose are you trying to fulfill by opting to spend money to rent or buy some piece of gear when something you already have will suffice? Are you trying to make a good recording or looking to gain access to bragging right by having used a particular piece of gear? In my experience, most people in the audience are oblivious to gear snobbery and could give two sh*ts about what you use as long as it sounds good.

[abyssinianson]

Kasi po, kung cost-efficiency rin lang ang pinag-uusapan, huwag na tayo magbayad ng studio kung DI lang naman gagawin natin.  Eh di bumili ka na lang ng Pocket POD for $129 or kahit 2nd hand POD.  Use it with your home PC.  No pressure with recording time.  Now that is cost-efficiency.

you can't equate cost efficiency with having the conscious desire to have a recording sound a certain way, this is like comparing grapes and papayas. it is quite obvious that a POD will sound different from a tube amp in a lot of ways, however, the question then becomes: do you want to just make a recording and get a song on disk OR do you want to make a recording, get a song on disk AND sound a certain way. The addition of certain parameters  nullifies cost-efficiency in this scenario because you are putting in your expectation to sound a specific way which requires particular gear and added cost. The existence of this very concept of "wanting to sound a certain way" is the reason why professional studios and semi-professional studios exist because, for some things, a specific set of studio recording equipment is needed.

[KitC]

Run an NI B4 into a real Leslie and it will sound like "the voice of God". Run practically any good organ patch into a Leslie and chances are it will sound good. This is one case where spinning rotors and moving air do give Leslie simulators the short stack.... for now (although the Motion Sound cabs faithfully recreate that famed Leslie sound, eh Marvin?). Eventually things will progress to the point where most everything is virtual. Damn... I hope they don't do it to sex like what they did Stallone and Bullock in "Demolition Man".

[skunkyfunk]

POD, solid state or tube - I think Delta's point was that being cost effective to get a job DONE calls for using whatever piece of gear you have access to without spending money to make a great recording. If a cheaper piece of gear does the job just as well as an expensive one, why not use it? You can nit pick this mofo all you want and delve into the details but the fact remains: what purpose are you trying to fulfill by opting to spend money to rent or buy some piece of gear when something you already have will suffice? Are you trying to make a good recording or looking to gain access to bragging right by having used a particular piece of gear? In my experience, most people in the audience are oblivious to gear snobbery and could give two sh*ts about what you use as long as it sounds good.

And in the same regard, people don't care if Beyonce sang through a $3K Neumann U87 or a $300 MXL V69.  Pero ask all the music studio people around here, if they don't GAS for a U87. 

Getting the job done =/= getting the job PERFECTLY

But you're right.  Sometimes cost can be a deterrent to getting the job perfectly.  I've seen the best recordings done on Chinese mics and cheap headphones as monitors, and atrocious recordings done in 4-figure/hour studios.  The bottomline is, choosing the best equipment and studio (and quite frankly, the engineer) for the project.  Presentation is still the be-all and end-all of the matter.  But for God's sake, how many Pinoy recordings are being made at this point, and how many of them can obtain worldwide acclamation?   You said it before, that it doesn't mean that because one OPM song has gotten played on Philippine radio, doesn't mean it did not sound any less crappy.  You even mentioned a famous band with great songs, great arrangement, with crappy production. 

It is not that I am maligning our recordings in general, in fact I feel that the prevailing paradigm and business models of the record companies (where they give least budget to the recording, get the most "decent" recorded tone and not to the point of godliness and channel most of the budget to marketing) is an insult to Pinoy talent. 

[skunkyfunk]

Run an NI B4 into a real Leslie and it will sound like "the voice of God". Run practically any good organ patch into a Leslie and chances are it will sound good. This is one case where spinning rotors and moving air do give Leslie simulators the short stack.... for now (although the Motion Sound cabs faithfully recreate that famed Leslie sound, eh Marvin?). Eventually things will progress to the point where most everything is virtual. Damn... I hope they don't do it to sex like what they did Stallone and Bullock in "Demolition Man".

Sir I beg to disagree.  The chapel organ in UP diliman is a Hammond C2, and it doesn't have your fancy Leslie rotating speakers or percussion.  It still sounds like God's voice.  And by not using the B4's percussion and Leslie emulations, the sound is barely there, but still cannot compete with the C2.  But I still love B4 nonetheless.

[KitC]

Everyone stare at this for a few minutes...



I've been having this same feeling since the first page.

[Al_Librero]

gaaah my eyes!!! 

oh and that spinning gif makes me a bit dizzy, too.

[x_taxi]

hahaha!  this thread feels like a pinoy movie.  halong aksyon, drama at komedi!

 

[abyssinianson]

And in the same regard, people don't care if Beyonce sang through a $3K Neumann U87 or a $300 MXL V69.  Pero ask all the music studio people around here, if they don't GAS for a U87. 

Getting the job done =/= getting the job PERFECTLY

ok....if the problem is getting it done perfectly, then invest in the equipment that will give you the result that you want. my beef with the direction of the thread discussion is this: sure, people GAS for the good stuff, I do too, but the fact remains that what we GAS for can be some pretty spendy things so we do the next best thing: we stop complaining and up the ante on recording because complaining about stuff we don't have ain't gonna get anything done faster. great records have been made with less stuff but it never stopped people from honing the parts of the music making process that they COULD improve given the absence of high quality studio recording equipment. Fletcher Munson effect be damned, unless you have the money, the resources and the means to invest in stuff that will get you that PERFECT recording (whatever a person's idea of perfect recording is), you're going to have to make do with what you got.

[inigo]

Everyone stare at this for a few minutes...

OT: optical illusion... stare at it for one minute. After one minute, stare at something else... astig ang effect.

[KitC]

@inigo - there are other ways to achieve the same effect.  mine's with Hennesy VSOP.

@Shinji- open ka naman ng thread! Here's a suggestion... what was the most difficult song/vocal/instrument you ever mixed? Let's hear it from DA MAN!

[polar]

hahaha!  this thread feels like a pinoy movie.  halong aksyon, drama at komedi!
 

 

Kape muna ako...

[KitC]

Kape muna ako...

Want some popcorn to go with it?

[x_taxi]

coffee and popcorn?  hmmm...  fusion cuisine na ba tayo ngayon?

 

[KitC]

Don't get me started. 

I'm mulling whether to move this to the anything goes forums.... oh, why bother? It's much more fun here.

[Poundcake]

Hahaha! What a thread! This is a good break from moderating the newbie-infested Guitar Central and Classifieds: Guitar and Bass Accessories forums

[KitC]

With all the references to coffee, wine, cheese, alcohol and the occasional starchy food, I'm thinking of renaming this to "Fusion Food for Thought".

[legato]

Run an NI B4 into a real Leslie and it will sound like "the voice of God". Run practically any good organ patch into a Leslie and chances are it will sound good. This is one case where spinning rotors and moving air do give Leslie simulators the short stack.... for now (although the Motion Sound cabs faithfully recreate that famed Leslie sound, eh Marvin?). Eventually things will progress to the point where most everything is virtual. Damn... I hope they don't do it to sex like what they did Stallone and Bullock in "Demolition Man".

No truer words have been said.

Technology is where all the reasearch $ are in. I really wouldnt be surprised if a few years down the road what you fear would come true. It's gonna be a Line 6 SEX POD XT 2000, a Tech 21 SansSkin or something.