TONEFUL GUITAR SELECTION

[firemodel55]

So I have got some free time for a bunch posts in philmusic:

DISCLAIMER: I LET THE AMERICANS DO THE SELECTION FOR ME...

BECAUSE:

1) EXPOSURE & EARS -- I mean who grew up with those great sounding tones on records and actually heard them in person?-- the Americans of course.  Sinong local luthier dito ang na-train ng Fender Custom Shop as master craftsman?  Mayroon na ba ditong naka-trabaho ni Clapton or Robben Ford?
2) WIDE SELECTION -- As much as stores in the U.S.A. are realy stocked with high end and premium stuff.  I believe the guy at the factory who does the Q.A. is in a better position to select -- bar none.  Thats why I go directly to Gene Baker and Suhr the guys to choose for me because they see and hear and feel 100% of what comes out.  Believe me, going thru the high end stuff at Mannys New York was so tiring to find one exceptional sounding Suhr that beat all the other brands.  I must have tested at least around 100 high end guitars across Mannys, Ludlow, 30th street Guitars, Chelsea, Umanovs, Rudys... I think I found around 4 that were really exceptional.  Mannys just left me alone to test as many guitars as I could kasi alam naman nila kung tone talaga hanap mo.  And it gets to a point that US$5,000 - US$10,000 dollar Gibsons, Fenders, PRS and even Dean (yup those pointy shapes that are made in the USA can cost as much) sound bad that it makes you think that you are shopping at JB Music on a higher level.
3) THE ONES WHO REALLY KNOW CAN DISTINGUISH TONE FROM THOSE THAT JUST LOOK GREAT -- they don't let their personal bias get the better of them but rather they use their ears.  In contrast, we have the Max Rufo and Jon Elegee camp who put a priority on looks and affordability more than great tone and thats just fine too as long as they get what they want.  By the way, if you are into the custom things, I don't think you have a more affordable choice than the two of them -- Custom Prices in U.S.A are just plain not affordable for a great majority.  A knowledgeable person once told me that a great luthier who makes great sounding guitars knows when to stop before completing a guitar.  These people have the wisdom to realize that it will not sound great.  A lot of luthiers just continue to finish the custom order because either they need the dough or they simply cannot hear or have the wisdom to know that it will sound bad at an intermediary step of the construction.  In short, kung na-string na lang nila malalaman that it sounds bad.
4) THEY HAVE BETTER AMPS AND EFFECTS -- they can pinpoint a really magical guitar more easily because their amp standard is way way better than anything we have here (and that includes me).  How many of you have more guitars than amps here?  I rest my case.
5) MORE HONEST (GENERALLY) -- they can discern if you are into tone and seem to be really excited when they find out that you can hear it because they suddenly offer you something they preselected from a batch hidden in the backroom.  Hindi kagaya dito, lahat ng stock sasabihan kanya kanya lang.  

[guitbox]

just curious bro---and this is an honest to goodness question.
with all these amazing foreign guitar makers that we admire, do you think there are "bad eggs" in their production as well despite their luthier-prowess?  you have tried a lot i suppose.  are there such or everything is just that good?

[firemodel55]

just curious bro---and this is an honest to goodness question.
with all these amazing foreign guitar makers that we admire, do you think there are "bad eggs" in their production as well despite their luthier-prowess?  you have tried a lot i suppose.  are there such or everything is just that good?

Yes they do have bad eggs but their bad eggs MAY be higher than the good eggs of some of our local luthiers.  So, you have to view things as a range. For example, the best sounding Fender MIM may beat the lower 50% of Fender USA Custom Shop but I believe that the best sounding Fender Custom Shop is way way above Fender MIM.

[guitbox]

i thought so---
but would you say that the worst you've tried---suhr for example---still sounds better than that of a say good Fender Custom Shop?

[randymarsh]

So I have got some free time for a bunch posts in philmusic:

DISCLAIMER: I LET THE AMERICANS DO THE SELECTION FOR ME...

statistically speaking, you do have a point there. but not everyone can afford a nice pricey guitar kaya local market muna ang takbo then we have the alternative guitar shop. i do see nothing wrong about that and seems to be logical for the budget minded. if budget was not a concern to every guitarist, lahat siguro tayo magkakatulad ng gitara.

[firemodel55]

I would say that the worst suhr may sound better than 70% of Fenders from a Custom Shop (this is just my opinion).  But this is my point, the suhr guys choose for me so that I get their best which may rival the best sounding vintage Fenders.

[guitbox]

cool!  now that's quality!
i would agree that even the greats have bad days---
hence, bad builds but it should generally be better pa ren. 

anyway, hope to get to try one that's truly superb.
thanks bro!

[firemodel55]

cool!  now that's quality!
i would agree that even the greats have bad days---
hence, bad builds but it should generally be better pa ren. 

anyway, hope to get to try one that's truly superb.
thanks bro!

Just one tip, when the Greats have superb builds and the looks are not as stunning as lets say a PRS Private Stock and you complain be prepared though because they will tell you why those private stock stuff will not sound as good. heh heh.  I found out the hard way because its a tough choice its really between tone and looks.  Sure we can have both to some degree of each but they really smashingly good sounding stuff is never as pretty.

[guitbox]

haha.  noted bro, thanks!

[nathanmanansala]

i almost always go on looks these days. my hearing is almost gone e.

plus yung subject of "which bookmatched top is more symmetric?" is a lot less subjective than "which sounds better?" kaya looks na lang ang habol ko palagi. otoh, none of my guitars have figured maple tops. in fact they both ugly according to my wife (who married me, so she MUST know a thing or two about good looks).

also, tone is in the face. its all visual.

[firemodel55]

i almost always go on looks these days. my hearing is almost gone e. MINES IS GETTING BETTER THOUGH...

plus yung subject of "which bookmatched top is more symmetric?" is a lot less subjective than "which sounds better?" kaya looks na lang ang habol ko palagi. otoh, none of my guitars have figured maple tops. in fact they both ugly according to my wife (who married me, so she MUST know a thing or two about good looks). OR SHE COULD KNOW A LOT ABOUT UGLY... HEH HEH

also, tone is in the face. its all visual. HMNNN DIDN'T WE HAVE THAT SAM MILBY THINGY WITH THE PRS WHICH WAS BEING SOLD AT JB ENDING UP ON HIS POSTER?  I CAN'T SEEM TO REMEMBER THE TOP... IT MUST BE THE COMPETITION... LOL

[nathanmanansala]

there's a pogi guitar player thread in here somewhere. i saw it a few days ago. i should post there.

i heart sam milby. sana next endorser nya sina ruokangas. or a sid poole LP replica. or a navigator. they make pretty guitars too.

[jopangan]

cool!  now that's quality!
i would agree that even the greats have bad days---
hence, bad builds but it should generally be better pa ren. 

anyway, hope to get to try one that's truly superb.
thanks bro!

YES nobody is perfect!

[bryanarzaga]

Notes from John Suhr..

The descriptions of tone are very subjective and can be misleading. Let's consider the primary tone generator! Many people don't want to hear it but it is very true: it is your hands...

"The touch in your left and right hand technique can definitely make or break your tone. All things considered, one person sitting down with one amp, on one day, will come to tonal conclusions about different wood combinations. These are my personal opinions on how certain wood sound to me with my guitars and my amps and speakers."


John on basswood

Basswood Back / Quilt or Flame Maple Top – Okay, this may be the Holy Grail of tone. The Basswood response is extended by a 3/16" Maple top adding more clarity and grind to the fatness of the Basswood, this combination is our favorite! Usually colors chosen will be opaque on the back with transparent colors on the top – LP style. It's most excellent with a one-piece Maple neck.

[boogsy]

True. I must say its quite a relief seeing a thread with substance in Guitar Central amidst all the spam and nonsense. With regards to honesty, most salespeople would be quick to say any guitar they have in stock is good sounding and are more concerned in making a sale. As for the rest of your points, I think it basically boils down to access - access to such a wide selection of gear, great musicians (especially live), and a strong historical foundation in the music industry. That said, its completely understandable to be partial to their judgement when it comes to instruments.

[firemodel55]

Notes from John Suhr..

The descriptions of tone are very subjective and can be misleading. Let's consider the primary tone generator! Many people don't want to hear it but it is very true: it is your hands...

"The touch in your left and right hand technique can definitely make or break your tone. All things considered, one person sitting down with one amp, on one day, will come to tonal conclusions about different wood combinations. These are my personal opinions on how certain wood sound to me with my guitars and my amps and speakers."


John on basswood

Basswood Back / Quilt or Flame Maple Top – Okay, this may be the Holy Grail of tone. The Basswood response is extended by a 3/16" Maple top adding more clarity and grind to the fatness of the Basswood, this combination is our favorite! Usually colors chosen will be opaque on the back with transparent colors on the top – LP style. It's most excellent with a one-piece Maple neck.

And I would like to add that they have exceptional guitars that they all can agree on.  In fact, it was they who rejected two of my inquiries because they felt it was NOT up to the standard of the suhr strat they shipped to me. 

[bryanarzaga]

And I would like to add that they have exceptional guitars that they all can agree on.  In fact, it was they who rejected two of my inquiries because they felt it was NOT up to the standard of the suhr strat they shipped to me. 

like i said preference, they wouldnt sell you a guitar that doesnt meet your requirements..because..that's not how buyer and seller interaction work..

to my preference John is right the suhr pro maple top with basswood body (guitarcenter appleton), was kick ass. to me it was punchier stock than the alder one's 

[firemodel55]

like i said preference, they wouldnt sell you a guitar that doesnt meet your requirements..because..that's not how buyer and seller interaction work..

to my preference John is right the suhr pro maple top with basswood body (guitarcenter appleton), was kick ass. to me it was punchier stock than the alder one's 

In this case I asked them to use their own tonal preference which means that we could agree on one standard or set of minimum standards.  Beyond wood combinations, they can discern which actual units actually sound superb within the same wood combinations.

[bryanarzaga]

In this case I asked them to use their own tonal preference which means that we could agree on one standard or set of minimum standards.  Beyond wood combinations, they can discern which actual units actually sound superb within the same wood combinations.

Beyond wood and building the guitar is playing and making music..and no im not heading in that direction, as what a business usually does is ask their potential customer, what they need and what 'specs' they might consider...mind reading isn't part of one's business especially guitar..

But based from that experience on two guitars from the same company, different models, stock for stock..which did cut the cake? suhr pro, hands down to that guitar..they know their stuff..lol why would they make a statement like that if weren't close to true? to say that least it wouldn't be a surprise if i actually get one of these killers next year. has more flames than some of the prs, the overall construction neck construction was superb,

same as the guitar below with a maple fretboard, black stained top

[firemodel55]

Beyond wood and building the guitar is playing and making music..and no im not heading in that direction, as what a business usually does is ask their potential customer, what they need and what 'specs' they might consider...mind reading isn't part of one's business especially guitar..

But based from that experience on two guitars from the same company, different models, stock for stock..which did cut the cake? suhr pro, hands down to that guitar..they know their stuff..lol why would they make a statement like that if weren't close to true? to say that least it wouldn't be a surprise if i actually get one of these killers next year. has more flames than some of the prs, the overall construction neck construction was superb,

same as the guitar below with a maple fretboard, black stained top

Because as you had said they know when to ask and they know if you are after tone because they don't go to the extent to describe the flame top but rather they go on to describe whether the guitar was extraordinary.

[AkelleFusion]

Nice post indeed. A breath of fresh air in terms of substance. The points are valid indeed. 

[jopangan]

You're like a drugs to me.

[pitongjerome]

So I have got some free time for a bunch posts in philmusic:

DISCLAIMER: I LET THE AMERICANS DO THE SELECTION FOR ME...

BECAUSE:

1) EXPOSURE & EARS -- I mean who grew up with those great sounding tones on records and actually heard them in person?-- the Americans of course.  Sinong local luthier dito ang na-train ng Fender Custom Shop as master craftsman?  Mayroon na ba ditong naka-trabaho ni Clapton or Robben Ford?
2) WIDE SELECTION -- As much as stores in the U.S.A. are realy stocked with high end and premium stuff.  I believe the guy at the factory who does the Q.A. is in a better position to select -- bar none.  Thats why I go directly to Gene Baker and Suhr the guys to choose for me because they see and hear and feel 100% of what comes out.  Believe me, going thru the high end stuff at Mannys New York was so tiring to find one exceptional sounding Suhr that beat all the other brands.  I must have tested at least around 100 high end guitars across Mannys, Ludlow, 30th street Guitars, Chelsea, Umanovs, Rudys... I think I found around 4 that were really exceptional.  Mannys just left me alone to test as many guitars as I could kasi alam naman nila kung tone talaga hanap mo.  And it gets to a point that US$5,000 - US$10,000 dollar Gibsons, Fenders, PRS and even Dean (yup those pointy shapes that are made in the USA can cost as much) sound bad that it makes you think that you are shopping at JB Music on a higher level.
3) THE ONES WHO REALLY KNOW CAN DISTINGUISH TONE FROM THOSE THAT JUST LOOK GREAT -- they don't let their personal bias get the better of them but rather they use their ears.  In contrast, we have the Max Rufo and Jon Elegee camp who put a priority on looks and affordability more than great tone and thats just fine too as long as they get what they want.  By the way, if you are into the custom things, I don't think you have a more affordable choice than the two of them -- Custom Prices in U.S.A are just plain not affordable for a great majority.  A knowledgeable person once told me that a great luthier who makes great sounding guitars knows when to stop before completing a guitar.  These people have the wisdom to realize that it will not sound great. A lot of luthiers just continue to finish the custom order because either they need the dough or they simply cannot hear or have the wisdom to know that it will sound bad at an intermediary step of the construction.  In short, kung na-string na lang nila malalaman that it sounds bad.
4) THEY HAVE BETTER AMPS AND EFFECTS -- they can pinpoint a really magical guitar more easily because their amp standard is way way better than anything we have here (and that includes me).  How many of you have more guitars than amps here?  I rest my case.
5) MORE HONEST (GENERALLY) -- they can discern if you are into tone and seem to be really excited when they find out that you can hear it because they suddenly offer you something they preselected from a batch hidden in the backroom.  Hindi kagaya dito, lahat ng stock sasabihan kanya kanya lang.  

ask lang, i thought you said before, in other threads here in GC, that mr baker said that "they will never know how the guitar will sound until it is finished"

now its "A knowledgeable person once told me that a great luthier who makes great sounding guitars knows when to stop before completing a guitar.  These people have the wisdom to realize that it will not sound great."

im just asking because it seems to contradict the other statement..

[jopangan]

I object your honor! 

[bryanarzaga]

Because as you had said they know when to ask and they know if you are after tone because they don't go to the extent to describe the flame top but rather they go on to describe whether the guitar was extraordinary.

Because it is as i said, the guitar wasnt 'wether it was extraordinary', it was hands down, cuts the cake better than the alder body suhr..the grains of the flame top was a plus(in reference of more flames=less tone), and they did a job well done indicating what these two combo's of wood could do..his tone selection is still top notch compared to his consumers choices when it comes to their personal preferences of what combos they want him to create and also pfft replace parts..when he already refined the instrument..especially pickups..