TONEFUL GUITAR SELECTION

[cfrancisco]

The reason for why things are considered boutique is because of the placement in the market. Quality definitely has a lot to do with it, ika nga, you get what you pay for. But I don't buy into your notion that the probability of getting a better sounding guitar is higher with boutique brands.  You just get what you pay for, since wood is not created equal, every instrument will have a uniqueness, pero for the most part, disregarding electronics and aesthetics, the selection is based on how resonant the wood is.   It's not that production guitars are crap, they just don't get the same treatment because of the material that comes with their price point.  Now, I can buy wood from warmoth and only pay 1/3 of the price of most boutique brands and get the same tone wood. 

[firemodel55]

Really? So, walang may magandang tone para sa inyo?  Example, I like guthrie govan, pero his tone is terible. Manipis sa lahat ng recordings nya.  Eto pa, bakit pareho yung tunog nya mapa charvel, suhr, prs, or fender?

I think that was my point. Everything will sound the same under heavy processing and recording. Best to hear  them in person to be able to distinguish a charvel from a suhr and a fender from a prs.

[firemodel55]

The reason for why things are considered boutique is because of the placement in the market. Quality definitely has a lot to do with it, ika nga, you get what you pay for. But I don't buy into your notion that the probability of getting a better sounding guitar is higher with boutique brands.  You just get what you pay for, since wood is not created equal, every instrument will have a uniqueness, pero for the most part, disregarding electronics and aesthetics, the selection is based on how resonant the wood is.   It's not that production guitars are crap, they just don't get the same treatment because of the material that comes with their price point.  Now, I can buy wood from warmoth and only pay 1/3 of the price of most boutique brands and get the same tone wood.

Most of the so called boutique builders even DO NOT consciously consider themselves boutique. For example, we know that gibson custom shop and fender custom shop are most of the time priced higher then boutique and they fall short of boutique with the exception of the masterbuilders. That being said, you can get a 5 percent chance of a GREAT guitar from warmoth and 95 percent CRAP while the boutique builder can get 20-30 percent on an EXCEPTIONAL guitar and another 30 percent chance on a GREAT guitar, another 20% chance on a GOOD guitar and the rest on CRAP.  That was the point of my answer to PAKATONE.

Now regarding your delusions about warmoth.... I leave that up to you.

[cfrancisco]

Delusion? I think not, more a realist.  Wood is wood is wood.  It's either warm or very bright, resonant or not so much.   Hahaha.  Tone is relative and wood is just one variable, nakakatawa lang dahil, you're very dismissive. You even talk down about the luthiers dyan sa pinas.   What do you know about their craft?  Warmoth only at %5? According to who? Hahaha.   At nakakatawa na hindi ka makapili ng gitarista with good tone.   

[firemodel55]

Delusion? I think not, more a realist.  Wood is wood is wood.  It's either warm or very bright, resonant or not so much.   Hahaha.  Tone is relative and wood is just one variable, nakakatawa lang dahil, you're very dismissive. You even talk down about the luthiers dyan sa pinas.   What do you know about their craft?  Warmoth only at %5? According to who? Hahaha.   At nakakatawa na hindi ka makapili ng gitarista with good tone.

Well one realist is another man's tone deaf.  NOT all wood is the same.  Even two guitars made from exactly the same plank will sound different.  Such a Noob. Noobs like you should be dismissed.  Nasa level ka pa lang ng timbre.  You better ask around more.

Don't need to know about their craft to know that Warmoth produces average guitars in quantity.  Natatawa rin ako sa iyo dahil pinipilit mo ako pumili ng gitarista with good tone based on recordings which are very limiting sa tone. 

And here goes, applied to you: You even talk down about luthiers diyan sa USA.  What do you know about their craft? Warmoth at MORE than 5%?  According to who? Quality DEFINITELY has a lot to do with it, YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.  Since wood is NOT created equal, every instrument will have a uniqueness, pero for the most part, disregarding electronics and aesthetics, the selection is based on how resonant the wood is.

[strat62]

Hahaha.. Let's all have a very merry christmas. Shall we?

[reikoozzy]

tone wars 

[TagaRetiro]

tone wars 

HAHAHAHA dapat may magproduce ng ganyang show sa discovery or history channel!

[siore]

Ok din 'to ngayong pasko.  Bago bumili ng kung ano-ano, isip isip muna.

Kung may nabili ka na... join the toan deff club.

[7string_highway]

I just want to chime in on regards to tone. Yes! a boutique builder ("yung high caliber builder ha") has a higher percentage to produce a toneful instrument compared to a mass produced off the mill guitars although tone is very subjective pero we agree to some extent that a great tone must have all the churva (insert "harmonics, timbre, hiyaw" cliche) that's why they are still operational despite the advancement of technology in guitar building. To me a tone must be felt in a live settings that's when you hit a note you can feel all the nuances of the guitar, guitar accessories and guitar amp working as one and to take not not all great tone sounds thae same. Although I love high quality guitars I'm not dismissing that you can't find a guitar with a great tone in lower mass produced guitars but what I'm most particular is the guitar amp I think it plays a much larger rule in guitar tone than the guitar itself. An excellent sounding guitar into a mediocre amp will sound mediocre the reverse is not. but to have both is where you appreciate great tone hence its called electric guitar music. I myself has still a lot to learn when it comes to tone and we all still do. On the side note I appreciate firemodel's post he knows what he's preaching although some might offend others view but definitely there's more to gain in his insights.

[Al_Librero]

All judgments and reviews are inherently flawed. And it's not just about wood, construction and all that. Tone is judged by our ears and brains. Objectivity is thrown out the window the moment psychoacoustics come into play.

But the thing is, somebody here thinks he's an exception. If people think they can learn from him, well and good. But at the same time, they shouldn't hold it against the others who choose not to buy into it. It's no less a personal journey than choosing (or not choosing) a religion to truly belong in.

[Poundcake]

Ho ho ho, may hahabol pa sa necrobump thread of the year.

[cfrancisco]

Al, you make so much sense. 

All these threads about tone/hiyaw reminds me of Bob Cordelee from Greg Howe's Sound Proof- Tone connoisseur  Trolololol

[firemodel55]

All judgments and reviews are inherently flawed. And it's not just about wood, construction and all that. Tone is judged by our ears and brains. Objectivity is thrown out the window the moment psychoacoustics come into play.

But the thing is, somebody here thinks he's an exception. If people think they can learn from him, well and good. But at the same time, they shouldn't hold it against the others who choose not to buy into it. It's no less a personal journey than choosing (or not choosing) a religion to truly belong in.

Judgments and reviews are NOT perfect but that does not mean that they cannot get to the truth or the reality of the strongest preference.  Objectivity is NOT equivalent to equal opportunity and 'equal' correctness.  In fact, objectivity is important in so much as it stands behind the ONE CORRECT TRUTH against ninety-nine (99) other lies.  The fact is, there are people, not many of them, who can transcend psychoacoustics and arrive at an objective preference of what is a superior guitar, effect or amp.  It simply is a gift or talent.  Whether I am exceptional or not, is not the point but rather there are others like me who set a high standard for guitar equipment.  I personally do so because life is too short to settle on mediocre guitar equipment that you constantly have to convince yourself is superior or on par with other instruments and later on end up selling --- that for me we is a waste of time and effort.  I strongly believe people can learn from me because I believe a large percentage of the population can hear and only need to overcome their bias thru confidence and exposure.  Not all will be gifted with the opportunity to be exposed or the wealth to learn what is and what is not.  Rather, I try to offer a short cut to the best of my ability and really set a high standard to what sounds good and MAGICAL. 

In the case of Warmoth, I was surprised that the fanboy has not considered the bad sounding warmoths going around.  In fact, one of the worst guitars ever on this planet is a warmoth.  Following the case of application, step 1: Objectively somebody says that he can get a warmoth to sound as good as a boutique guitar.  Step 2: Zooming out.  One sees that not a lot of luthiers describe warmoth as toneful.  In fact, mas maganda pa yata ang USA Custom Guitars.  On the other hand, not a lot of players also have kudos to say about Warmoth.  Step 3: Thus, we can conclude with objectivity that either warmoth produced one exceptional guitar or fanboy was either tonedeaf or lacked enough exposure.  Most people stop at Step 1 and proceed to post nonsense because either they are too lazy to continue or don't have the intellectual capacity to consider the bigger picture.

But there are a lot of witch doctors and so called tone gurus who don't even hold to the amount of equipment and exposure I have gone thru.  And I will be the first to tell you that I still have to learn a lot.

Guitar equipment is NOT religion.  You can immediately classify guitar equipment as either bad or good sounding.  The only problem is that this skill is not easily learnt thru stories, magazine articles or feel good forums like philmusic.  It is acquired thru purchasing mistakes, listening and conversing with experts outside the Philippines, and spending a god damn amount of money.  But then again as I have emphasized before you don't need good equipment to enjoy--- look at Ramon Jacinto.  Then again, I doubt that you guys would spend to watch him.

[Al_Librero]

Whatever. My post was not meant for you. And as usual sablay ang pag-intindi mo. I didn't say guitar equipment IS religion. What I said is that the journey to finding the right rig can be just as personal for some people.

[blackwolfie]

Merry christmas alex!

Makes a lot of sense.

In short, you'll always get what you pay for.

Don't expect a diamond if you're only willing to shell out pennies

[firemodel55]

Merry christmas alex!

Makes a lot of sense.

In short, you'll always get what you pay for.

Don't expect a diamond if you're only willing to shell out pennies

Correct. Merry Christmas to you and to everyone here at philmusic.  And Remember.... buying Guitar Gear is still healthier and fun than other vices out there. Quest forth everyone.

[analog.matt]

I just want to chime in on regards to tone. Yes! a boutique builder ("yung high caliber builder ha") has a higher percentage to produce a toneful instrument compared to a mass produced off the mill guitars although tone is very subjective pero we agree to some extent that a great tone must have all the churva (insert "harmonics, timbre, hiyaw" cliche) that's why they are still operational despite the advancement of technology in guitar building. To me a tone must be felt in a live settings that's when you hit a note you can feel all the nuances of the guitar, guitar accessories and guitar amp working as one and to take not not all great tone sounds thae same. Although I love high quality guitars I'm not dismissing that you can't find a guitar with a great tone in lower mass produced guitars but what I'm most particular is the guitar amp I think it plays a much larger rule in guitar tone than the guitar itself. An excellent sounding guitar into a mediocre amp will sound mediocre the reverse is not. but to have both is where you appreciate great tone hence its called electric guitar music. I myself has still a lot to learn when it comes to tone and we all still do. On the side note I appreciate firemodel's post he knows what he's preaching although some might offend others view but definitely there's more to gain in his insights.

I agree.

to me its simple. ika nga ni Bruce Lee, "add what is useful, reject what is useless, add what is specifically your own..."

in other words, intelligent evaluation based not just on theory, but on experience too.

Hence there was a point in time when i'd visit people with good gears from different schools of thought. ( kasama na vintage gears.) kasi its hard to talk about something you haven't played. and it puts what you always read in the net and magazines into perspective.

part of this "search" was a few visits to Alex. He made me realize a lot of things.

of course in the end, nasa akin pa din kung saan i-to tow ang linya. I don't have deep pockets like him and have yet to finish my CPA, wala pa dito yung University debt that can buy 3 high end Gil Yaron LPs (far from the basic build price) at may sukli pa. at least, from the stuff i learn from him and many others, im able to optimize what i can currently spend for music...and will hopefully minimize my purchase mistakes in the future.

for discussions sake lang, i don't think it's a religion to him. may mga nabati nga si alex na above average guitars, pero yun nga, ilang guitar naman dinaanan nung mga may ari para mahanap yun. the point here is he is not closed on his gears. yun nga lang the truth is, from my eyes and ears lang, maganda talaga ang gear niya.

[franzdean]

Merry Christmas sa lahat, late na naka bati. nawala net kahapon eh...

I'll always love this kind of thread.

I learn both from sir firemodel55, vs the anti-firemodel55

Lemme sit here, learn, and grab my beer :3

[bryanarzaga]

wow, alot of analogies being thrown around..

happy new year

[officebiker]

Record na lang kaya kayo ng kanta in the same amount of time with your preferred gear and engineer. Tapos parinig nyo samin for comparison. Happy New Year!!

[franzdean]

Record na lang kaya kayo ng kanta in the same amount of time with your preferred gear and engineer. Tapos parinig nyo samin for comparison. Happy New Year!!

ehehehe. let's see about that 'comparison' 

[ybab_10tsepmet]

i just bought a cheap 7 string chibanez gio for less than 10k

it feels light and the wood a little creepy (dahil medyo maputi pa sya)

pero solb ako nung nakakuha ako ng timpla na ok.

i think QUALITY is relative, so as the wood, so is the player criticizing it.
Man Hours ung nagpapamahal kasi labor of love un.regardless kung pangit o maganda ang kalalabasan

*akin lamang pong opinyown*

[firemodel55]

i just bought a cheap 7 string chibanez gio for less than 10k

it feels light and the wood a little creepy (dahil medyo maputi pa sya)

pero solb ako nung nakakuha ako ng timpla na ok.

i think QUALITY is relative, so as the wood, so is the player criticizing it.
Man Hours ung nagpapamahal kasi labor of love un.regardless kung pangit o maganda ang kalalabasan

*akin lamang pong opinyown*

Oh believe me you don't get tone wood for that price...  Kung totoo sinasabi mo bakit iba iba ang tunog ng same model ng Gibson o Fender o Ibanez Gio?

[reikoozzy]

wala yan sa tonewood tonewood kung yan gamay nya eh