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Author Topic: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?  (Read 38655 times)

Offline maxi_musikero

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #100 on: February 14, 2012, 04:26:32 PM »
Di na yan, alam na naman ng mga nakakabasa dito ang katotohanan. We're talking about local DIY pedals in general, anyway.

he didn't admit it. not once. wow.
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Offline hiskoolstudes

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #101 on: February 14, 2012, 04:27:03 PM »
The Tone Scientist  claims to be the DESIGNER of Shredhead but I think the Tone Scientist is nothing more but a mere con artist.

Pardon my words but I really thought the Shreadhead was a pinoy masterpiece.

and you have to create an alternick just to state those :)
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Offline shredmaestrobri

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #102 on: February 14, 2012, 04:27:40 PM »
I'm gonna share all of my thoughts regarding this topic, so please bear with my longer-than-usual post.

Yup, it's really about ethics. Moreso, falsely claiming to be the innovator is a no-no. Basing his project on the MI Audio Crunch Box, Madbean designed his own PCB and defined the values of each component. Now someone directly copying Madbean's work and not giving credit to the real innovator and somehow claiming that all the tweaks done originated from his brain ain't so cool. It's such a shame that one's claim to fame for being a "tone scientist" had to come from directly copying another person's innovations. Moreover, I highly doubt it if Madbean earned even a few Pesos from each unit sold. I was a fan of that pedal for quite a while (I promoted it to everyone within my circle of influence) and I initially gave him the benefit of the doubt when he claimed that he added more components on the other side of the PCB... well, until I reverse-engineered it myself.

Most of the people here know me as a connoisseur of premium pedals but I'm actually very open-minded when it comes to modding, tweaking and so on. I just stick with international brands due to their inherently better resale value. Being an electronics engineer myself, I know the thrill of building electronic circuits and testing them at both signal (oscilloscope) and audio (actual testing) levels. The boutique guys who sell modded versions of classic pedals (Lovepedal, Tim Cochrane, Analogman, Keeley, etc.) all experienced that thrill as well; they did their own R&D for getting the results that they wanted to get. That "R&D" doesn't mean merely logging into FSB or DIY Stompboxes, downloading some circuit schematics, building one of each for "testing" if they works then mass-producing the circuits for personal profit. The ones who ripped off other circuits outright got (and are still getting) a lot of flak from the guitarists/music community for doing so. Globally, if I may add. John Landgraff and the Freekish Blues guys are just a few of them.

It doesn't matter if the modifications are very minimal; what really matters is that they didn't just stop at "Hey I just got a working pedal circuit online, lemme mass produce this for a quick buck!" They innovated; they used their brains to make classic designs sound and function better (e.g. Madbean's idea of bringing out the presence knob, Sean taking out the buffer circuit to create the Eternity, etc.). That's actually what the consumer base is paying for when buying boutique/small-shop pedals; it's the know-how and experience of those builders in designing pedals that function and sound better than the originals. Selling cloned pedals means that the consumer is paying P2.5k-3.5k for roughly P500 in parts, P2k-2.5k for labor and a big fat ZERO for innovation. If I didn't know crap about electronics, I'd rather ask someone knowledgeable to find a nice schematic for me, buy the components myself for P500 and go to my friendly neighborhood electronics guy (who probably has more experience in electronics than most of the guys here) and have him assemble it for me for P500 or maybe P1k even. Now if cheap price is the only consideration, then it can't get any cheaper than that.

It's the consumer's responsibility to judge if the differences do justify the extra cost. But really, there's nothing stopping anyone, including those in our local DIY scene, from adding a premium that they think would be worth their time and effort in meticulously improvising, developing and fabricating quality pedals. That's why I think that the more known boutique builders have the right to charge extra for their products.

It's always an encouragement to see music products being made locally. Sincerely, more power to you guys. I really mean it. But please, directly copying other people's innovations isn't going to put our country on the map. Like what one of the Wampler guys said when he found out that one of their pedals was directly ripped off, they would always welcome the thought of other people modifying their pedals' circuits and adding improvements to what they believe are already great products. That's the challenge to the local DIY/builders' community. Think big, guys. If you're really serious about making pedals, then build well thought-of and innovative products that will compete internationally.

No offense meant, guys. Just being honest and straightforward. Carry on.

ian, once again, you said it very well. agreed!

Offline gyrome

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #103 on: February 14, 2012, 04:35:10 PM »
Sinagot na markv yan matagal na. Hindi nya rin itinanggi na based sa crunchbox ang shredhead.

Offline milzer

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #104 on: February 14, 2012, 04:36:26 PM »
Sinagot na markv yan matagal na. Hindi nya rin itinanggi na based sa crunchbox ang shredhead.

ehh asan ung MODS????


Offline masarapangtaho

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #105 on: February 14, 2012, 04:36:33 PM »
This.

So... Amps? haha.

i guess the same goes with amps. medyo broader discussion lang since merong matching ng amp and speakers involved.
"so if you mix amp circuit A with speaker B and cabinet type C, is it 'original'?"

Offline ron21

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #106 on: February 14, 2012, 05:12:08 PM »
ehh asan ung MODS????
he didn't admit it. not once. wow.

quote ko lang sagot ni MarkV jan.

Quote from: markv
Shredhead is basically a modded crunch box... and all users know about it.


yung nasa FSB site, mga early versions pa yun syempre medyo messy pa wiring .. kayo talaga  :-D

Makita nyo man ang TOP ng pcb, marami pang secret na 'nakapailalim' sa shredhead - mabuti pa bumili na lang kayo at i-disassemble nyo para malaman nyo

Offline Poundcake

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #107 on: February 14, 2012, 05:20:00 PM »
"The LORD will save me, and we will play my music on stringed instruments all the days of our lives, at the house of the LORD." Isaiah 38:20

Offline turiguiliano

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #108 on: February 14, 2012, 05:20:46 PM »
So... Amps? haha.

i guess the same goes with amps. medyo broader discussion lang since merong matching ng amp and speakers involved.
"so if you mix amp circuit A with speaker B and cabinet type C, is it 'original'?"

That last word. Brings back sooooo many memories. hahahaah. Is an original .... teh lulz
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Offline maxi_musikero

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #109 on: February 14, 2012, 05:21:23 PM »
quote ko lang sagot ni MarkV jan.

yup. we all know what he said. and yes, he still didn't admit it. read Poundcake's long post.
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Offline pie-key

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #110 on: February 14, 2012, 05:35:33 PM »
I think the shredhead talk should go somewhere else mga sir with all respect to you all nagiging batayan na yung nagawa ni sir markv which i think wala na tayo magagawa and just leave it all behind in the past. For all i know nasa user na yan kung gusto niya pa din bumili or not since naging standard distortion boutique of the past year na yung pedal.

Back on topic, sir poundcake and tge other has a point, and i really admire how he wants the local diyers to improve themeselves and not just make something and sell it also should undergo few tests and r&d, quality test and of course ear testing for the real player.

Now my point of view to the electroncs side, for me its really hard finding the right stuffs and put it in the pcb and whalah! buy my pedal its good for you hehehe lol! I myself did a lot of searching this past few years finding and researching for the standard sounding dirts boosters delay modulations etc. Its really hard when everything needs to be done in just to make it work which is a bad habbit, building takes time and effort and an almost never ending trial and errors. For myself i did the most possible innovations on my pedals clones and self designed ones trying mods after mods and re ising the actual data and correcting errors that i think a builder should always take note. My opinion on the builders here is uhm, SOME uses others documentations and specs sheet and refer to it. Well buti sana kung dun lang kaso minsan sa katamaran yun na din ang binebenta and point ko eh OO mahirap mag-design, eh kung ganun panu mo nabuo at napagana yan kung mahirap? Ibig sabihin ba nun tinamad or convinient?

In my almost 7 years of diy, i never really tried mass producing my stuffs because im affraid that someday it would just look like [gooey brown stuff] to others but sometime last 2009 i sold 6 units of my sho clone booster with my personally designed pcb and my choice of specs? now is that legal? or did i just broke the rule, well to not to be arrogant or in any form they are very happy with the results, one even told me that it really clans up well and rated it almost identical. for a diyer like me thats a smile for a day. For a price of 300php RTU circuit its fair i think.

Ang akin lang nga sir, para malinawan sana maging part ng forum na to yung evaluation sa buider or throw some review INSIDE OUT, this would not mean a low blow as a designer you should accept faults errors etc. 'cause i believe itll make you better. Sana we throw a tone party for builders i would love to join and prepare for that and i would really love to share my knowledge regarding this matter.
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Offline turiguiliano

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #111 on: February 14, 2012, 06:09:18 PM »
Sana we throw a tone party for builders i would love to join and prepare for that and i would really love to share my knowledge regarding this matter.


Yaaaaan. Mismo. Dapat mangyari yan! Aabangan ko talaga ito.
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Offline markv

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #112 on: February 14, 2012, 07:36:48 PM »
Yes I admit na sinabi ko na noon na 'nakapailalim' yung mods sa shredhead. To all buyers of the shredhead, I tell them that the shredhead is based on crunch box pedal (which is also based on marshall guv'nor)
Nakapag-dissect na pala ang ilan dito, so dapat alam nyo na alin dun. Pag tinuro ko pa 'exactly' saan dun, eh di lahat nakapag-DIY na rin ng sarili nilang shredhead. I'm surprised na lahat ng nagdissect eh naoverlook pa yun.

Minor lang yung mod, pero malaki ang change sa tone. To all of guys who still have doubts, you can try to A/B the crunch box to the shredhead.

I'm using high-quality components to build the shredhead, (if you've seen a green mylar cap on yours, it's because 2 years ago limited lang ang stocks ng epektos.com) Kung alam nyo lang ang capital how much per shredhead, I bet you guys would realize that arguing/debating about the shredhead is just pointless to overanalyze.

I never forced anyone to buy the shredhead.

All posts that are against me on this thread are from forumers I don't know personally. I mean, just because you don't know me in person.. do you guys really have to be that rude?
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 07:42:40 PM by markv »

Offline masarapangtaho

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #113 on: February 14, 2012, 07:44:38 PM »
That last word. Brings back sooooo many memories. hahahaah. Is an original .... teh lulz

i guess it "matters". haha.

Offline stompnoise

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #114 on: February 14, 2012, 07:56:51 PM »
I don't get why people are so angry about the shredhead being a modified clone of another pedal. The thing got popular because people testified that it sounded good. How can you feel ripped off by buying something almost half the price of the original and was pretty decent?

Offline r_chino18

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #115 on: February 14, 2012, 08:08:32 PM »
I don't get why people are so angry about the shredhead being a modified clone of another pedal. The thing got popular because people testified that it sounded good. How can you feel ripped off by buying something almost half the price of the original and was pretty decent?

For some, it's not just about the sound. Back read from page 1 to get a good idea why.

Offline Al_Librero

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #116 on: February 14, 2012, 08:12:41 PM »
I don't get why people are so angry about the shredhead being a modified clone of another pedal. The thing got popular because people testified that it sounded good. How can you feel ripped off by buying something almost half the price of the original and was pretty decent?
First of all, bukod dun sa mga nanggagatong lang, I don't know who's angry. Second, while some of them are a bit long, carefully read the important posts. You may have missed the key points raised.

The thread is about selling of clones, sometimes done in large numbers. The Shredhead shouldn't be singled out the way it has been. There are far worse offenders.
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Offline kawayan_strat

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #117 on: February 14, 2012, 08:21:44 PM »

Yaaaaan. Mismo. Dapat mangyari yan! Aabangan ko talaga ito.
How i wish i could be there in Manila for the tone party,para narin ma bitbit ko yung modded BSIAB ko na nag 2nd place sa Distortion shootout nung 1st gear fest! I still use that pedal for 5 years and only the 3pdt broke down and it's still my favorite drive pedal on my board. :)

Offline Poundcake

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #118 on: February 14, 2012, 08:37:34 PM »
Yes I admit na sinabi ko na noon na 'nakapailalim' yung mods sa shredhead. To all buyers of the shredhead, I tell them that the shredhead is based on crunch box pedal (which is also based on marshall guv'nor)
Nakapag-dissect na pala ang ilan dito, so dapat alam nyo na alin dun. Pag tinuro ko pa 'exactly' saan dun, eh di lahat nakapag-DIY na rin ng sarili nilang shredhead. I'm surprised na lahat ng nagdissect eh naoverlook pa yun.

Minor lang yung mod, pero malaki ang change sa tone. To all of guys who still have doubts, you can try to A/B the crunch box to the shredhead.

I'm using high-quality components to build the shredhead, (if you've seen a green mylar cap on yours, it's because 2 years ago limited lang ang stocks ng epektos.com) Kung alam nyo lang ang capital how much per shredhead, I bet you guys would realize that arguing/debating about the shredhead is just pointless to overanalyze.

I never forced anyone to buy the shredhead.

All posts that are against me on this thread are from forumers I don't know personally. I mean, just because you don't know me in person.. do you guys really have to be that rude?

There may be rude posts here, but MV Electronics is also a brand, just like BOSS, Ibanez, Lovepedal, Klon, Landgraff, etc., all of which are openly talked about especially if the people have issues with the respective products of these aforementioned companies. You can't expect everybody to have to know you personally for them to be able to comment. That's part of being a builder. You can either A.) be overly emotional about it, throw tantrums or answer back to those rude posts, or B.) be a professional and cordially answer any questions or doubts that other people might have about the pedals that you build.

No need to get emotional. Trabaho mo yan pre.


I don't get why people are so angry about the shredhead being a modified clone of another pedal. The thing got popular because people testified that it sounded good. How can you feel ripped off by buying something almost half the price of the original and was pretty decent?

What you don't get is that the ones getting ripped off aren't any of the Shredhead owners out there but the ones whose circuit board and list of materials were used without permission in spite of the fact that the PCB designer explicitly said that HIS work is not to be used for commercial purposes. Gustong-gusto ko rin ang tunog ng Shredhead, mind you. It's just that if this thing continues and the local builders just go on directly copying PCBs "since may market naman," then hanggang dun na lang talaga tayo. Wala nang expansion at hindi na makaka-compete yang mga kopyang yan sa international market.

Mark V. already has a good basis with that Madbean PCB design. It would have been really interesting if something like an independent boost footswitch or a couple of frequency-cut switches could be added to the basic circuit (take a hint, Mark). Eh di ibang produkto na sana yun since malamang kailangan i-modify ang PCB design nun. I'm sure that it wouldn't be so hard, especially not for a tone scientist, right? Yun lang ang sinasabi kong innovation, yung magdagdag ng mga makabuluhang function based on schematics from websites at hindi lang rektahang gagawing pedal yung schematic tapos benta-benta na agad. Kayang-kaya yan ng mga local DIY builders natin. Sabi nga ni pareng siore e, "they're just friggin' pedals" so di na dapat problema yun.

Pag may mga local builder na makagawa ng mga innovation na yan, just imagine all the possibilities of their modified pedals being sold internationally at hindi lang sa iisang market na laging mahilig lang sa mura. Eh di mas yayaman pa yung mga builder nun, makikilala pa ang Pilipinas as a source of quality guitar effects. If that happens (and I hope that it does happen), imagine the value that our local builders can add to their pedals. Eh ang mga going rates ng DIY pedals ngayon eh parang presyong Behringer o Boston na lang e, di na tuloy nabibigyan ng value ng mga gawa ng local builders. Local pedals are mostly just considered as cheap alternatives to their American-designed counterparts. Pwede namang baguhin yun.

I hope you folks finally understand what I've been trying to explain all this time. Para sa inyo yan, boys. Kaya nyo yan.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 11:37:27 PM by Poundcake »
"The LORD will save me, and we will play my music on stringed instruments all the days of our lives, at the house of the LORD." Isaiah 38:20

Offline pie-key

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #119 on: February 14, 2012, 09:51:14 PM »
What you don't get is that the ones getting ripped off aren't any of the Shredhead owners out there but the ones whose circuit board and list of materials were used without permission in spite of the fact that the PCB designer explicitly said that HIS work is not to be used for commercial purposes. Gustong-gusto ko rin ang tunog ng Shredhead, mind you. It's just that if this things continues and the local builders just go on directly copying PCBs "since may market naman," then hanggang dun na lang talaga tayo. Wala nang expansion at hindi na makaka-compete yang mga kopyang yan sa international market.

Mark V. already has a good basis with that Madbean PCB design. It would have been really interesting if something like an independent boost footswitch or a couple of frequency-cut switches could be added to the basic circuit (take a hint, Mark). Eh di ibang produkto na sana yun since malamang kailangan i-modify ang PCB design nun. I'm sure that it wouldn't be so hard, especially not for a tone scientist, right? Yun lang ang sinasabi kong innovation, yung magdagdag ng mga makabuluhang function based on schematics from websites at hindi lang rektahang gagawing pedal yung schematic tapos benta-benta na agad. Kayang-kaya yan ng mga local DIY builders natin. Sabi nga ni pareng siore e, "they're just friggin' pedals" so di na dapat problema yun.

Pag may mga local builder na makagawa ng mga innovation na yan, just imagine all the possibilities of their modified pedals being sold internationally at hindi lang sa iisang market na laging mahilig lang sa mura. Eh di mas yayaman pa yung mga builder nun, makikilala pa ang Pilipinas as a source of quality guitar effects. If that happens (and I hope that it does happen), imagine the value that our local builders can add to their pedals. Eh ang mga going rates ng DIY pedals ngayon eh parang presyong Behringer o Boston na lang e, di na tuloy nabibigyan ng value ng mga gawa ng local builders. Local pedals are mostly just considered as cheap alternatives to their American-designed counterparts. Pwede namang baguhin yun.

I hope you folks finally understand what I've been trying to explain all this time. Para sa inyo yan, boys. Kaya nyo yan.


nicely said again, I am really challenged to build something good. Maybe we should work on having a communication on every DIYer here. open talk about innovations and ideas. that might be a good idea right? open for beginners, and advance skilled electronics enthusiasts.. malay natin one of us win some thropies soon not just here but internationally. like what sir P.C. is trying to point out. I would be happy to see one of our builds being known because of its uniqueness kahit clone pa yan. 
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Offline quaternotetriplet

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #120 on: February 14, 2012, 10:04:53 PM »
How i wish i could be there in Manila for the tone party,para narin ma bitbit ko yung modded BSIAB ko na nag 2nd place sa Distortion shootout nung 1st gear fest! I still use that pedal for 5 years and only the 3pdt broke down and it's still my favorite drive pedal on my board. :)
gusto ko rin sana!
h

Offline pie-key

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #121 on: February 14, 2012, 10:30:49 PM »
gusto ko rin sana!

we could set a schedule for all to come naman.
References:
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Offline bryanarzaga

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #122 on: February 14, 2012, 11:00:56 PM »
ok lang ba yung ganun? I mean, If you can build it, why not make some money out of it?  :-Dwhat do you think?

Hala... some sort of Piracy??? <_<

http://www.buildyourownclone.com/

Offline Van*

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #123 on: February 14, 2012, 11:28:16 PM »
What you own, owns you.

Offline spetsnaz1123

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #124 on: February 14, 2012, 11:38:27 PM »
ano ba daw talaga yung mods na 'nakapailalim' dun sa SH?
'one never fails until he quits trying'