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Author Topic: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?  (Read 38365 times)

Offline pitongjerome

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #50 on: February 13, 2012, 08:03:34 PM »


If you mean the Shredhead, there's a thread at FSB about that. I don't want to re-post images here for fear of being thought of as someone out to wreck markv's reputation. I'm still a fan of how he tweaked the Crunch Box, and let's not forget, the Boss DS-1, which I never ever liked until I got to own one that got Brit-Modded.

Poundcake also has first-hand comparisons, if you don't want to take my word for it.

yeah i mean the SH. so according to FSB, this is really a clone with no mods?
I have stated that there are more bad sounding suhrs then there are good ones

Offline emil_murillo

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #51 on: February 13, 2012, 08:15:17 PM »
Good point sir siore... sir region III too... ♥



► DIY - do it yourself - you made it for your personal use (sorry i mentioned it again)...
► CLONES -  exact circuit but mostly of different enclosure designs...
► INSPIRED PEDAL - These are pedals which circuits are originated from another circuit but with improvements or significant modification which result significantly different from it's origin.. e.g. Ibanez TS9 ► there's a lot of pedals that were TS9 Inspired like clon centaur, Fulltone Fulldrive 2, or even Boss SD1... They sold and profited on the so called Ibanez TS9 "INSPIRED" circuit... Sometimes they call it REVERSE ENGINEERED especially if the circuit are drastically improved...
► ORIGINAL DESIGN - same as to OEM - like to sustain pedals ► there are a lot of circuit designs by famous brands and institute like Fernandes sustainer which uses feedback system.. There are opticals which uses LDR/LED... There are circuits that uses opamps like the ones i saw on DOD pedal... Others uses OTA (operational Transconductance amplifier)... While other uses Hex Inverters..


-Emil Murillo

Offline IncX

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #52 on: February 13, 2012, 08:39:00 PM »
nakita mo na ba schem ng Eternity and compared it with the tubescreamer? bufferless tubescreamer lang ang eternity with little tweaks.

hehe, to be honest, im an electronics noob and showing me the same circuit in different enclosures would make me go "are they different?"

-*-

still though... they sound different, just like Coke tastes different from Pepsi. i wouldn't go as far as calling it "pirated" ... perhaps "influenced" is the right word.


Offline Al_Librero

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #53 on: February 13, 2012, 10:31:07 PM »
yeah i mean the SH. so according to FSB, this is really a clone with no mods?
Hindi issue masyado para sa kanila whether or not there were changes to the circuit. Their primary gripe was the use of the madbean PCB layout, which is a supposedly copyrighted intellectual property. And since no light was shed regarding the issue, it was fair for them to presume that it was done so without permission. It was also understandable for some eyebrows to be raised because over a hundred SH's were already sold at that stage. That's already a lot for a relatively obscure small scale builder. May mga hindi masyadong maganda yung bitaw ng salita dun (galing pa sa kapwa Pinoy yung iba, mga member dito). But if anyone read closely, they'd notice that the veterans over there remained fairly neutral and encouraged MarkV to design his own layout so everybody'll be content. I haven't seen a new Shredhead to confirm whether or not Mark actually heeded that advice.

I think the general opinion at FSB regarding the issue is somewhat in-line with that of many of us here.

Personally, as far as the local scene goes, it's not a matter of breaking the law. Chasing down allegedly fraudulent local builders is more trouble than it's worth. They can't even do that within the same country. But it's still very much a matter of ethics. I'm very particular about that whether the other guy I'm dealing with is the seller or the buyer. I believe everyone should.
Trashcan of Thoughts - http://www.allibrero.com

Offline Poundcake

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #54 on: February 13, 2012, 11:50:07 PM »
Hindi issue masyado para sa kanila whether or not there were changes to the circuit. Their primary gripe was the use of the madbean PCB layout, which is a supposedly copyrighted intellectual property. And since no light was shed regarding the issue, it was fair for them to presume that it was done so without permission. It was also understandable for some eyebrows to be raised because over a hundred SH's were already sold at that stage. That's already a lot for a relatively obscure small scale builder. May mga hindi masyadong maganda yung bitaw ng salita dun (galing pa sa kapwa Pinoy yung iba, mga member dito). But if anyone read closely, they'd notice that the veterans over there remained fairly neutral and encouraged MarkV to design his own layout so everybody'll be content. I haven't seen a new Shredhead to confirm whether or not Mark actually heeded that advice.

I think the general opinion at FSB regarding the issue is somewhat in-line with that of many of us here.

Personally, as far as the local scene goes, it's not a matter of breaking the law. Chasing down allegedly fraudulent local builders is more trouble than it's worth. They can't even do that within the same country. But it's still very much a matter of ethics. I'm very particular about that whether the other guy I'm dealing with is the seller or the buyer. I believe everyone should.

I'm gonna share all of my thoughts regarding this topic, so please bear with my longer-than-usual post.

Yup, it's really about ethics. Moreso, falsely claiming to be the innovator is a no-no. Basing his project on the MI Audio Crunch Box, Madbean designed his own PCB and defined the values of each component. Now someone directly copying Madbean's work and not giving credit to the real innovator and somehow claiming that all the tweaks done originated from his brain ain't so cool. It's such a shame that one's claim to fame for being a "tone scientist" had to come from directly copying another person's innovations. Moreover, I highly doubt it if Madbean earned even a few Pesos from each unit sold. I was a fan of that pedal for quite a while (I promoted it to everyone within my circle of influence) and I initially gave him the benefit of the doubt when he claimed that he added more components on the other side of the PCB... well, until I reverse-engineered it myself.

Most of the people here know me as a connoisseur of premium pedals but I'm actually very open-minded when it comes to modding, tweaking and so on. I just stick with international brands due to their inherently better resale value. Being an electronics engineer myself, I know the thrill of building electronic circuits and testing them at both signal (oscilloscope) and audio (actual testing) levels. The boutique guys who sell modded versions of classic pedals (Lovepedal, Tim Cochrane, Analogman, Keeley, etc.) all experienced that thrill as well; they did their own R&D for getting the results that they wanted to get. That "R&D" doesn't mean merely logging into FSB or DIY Stompboxes, downloading some circuit schematics, building one of each for "testing" if they works then mass-producing the circuits for personal profit. The ones who ripped off other circuits outright got (and are still getting) a lot of flak from the guitarists/music community for doing so. Globally, if I may add. John Landgraff and the Freekish Blues guys are just a few of them.

It doesn't matter if the modifications are very minimal; what really matters is that they didn't just stop at "Hey I just got a working pedal circuit online, lemme mass produce this for a quick buck!" They innovated; they used their brains to make classic designs sound and function better (e.g. Madbean's idea of bringing out the presence knob, Sean taking out the buffer circuit to create the Eternity, etc.). That's actually what the consumer base is paying for when buying boutique/small-shop pedals; it's the know-how and experience of those builders in designing pedals that function and sound better than the originals. Selling cloned pedals means that the consumer is paying P2.5k-3.5k for roughly P500 in parts, P2k-2.5k for labor and a big fat ZERO for innovation. If I didn't know crap about electronics, I'd rather ask someone knowledgeable to find a nice schematic for me, buy the components myself for P500 and go to my friendly neighborhood electronics guy (who probably has more experience in electronics than most of the guys here) and have him assemble it for me for P500 or maybe P1k even. Now if cheap price is the only consideration, then it can't get any cheaper than that.

It's the consumer's responsibility to judge if the differences do justify the extra cost. But really, there's nothing stopping anyone, including those in our local DIY scene, from adding a premium that they think would be worth their time and effort in meticulously improvising, developing and fabricating quality pedals. That's why I think that the more known boutique builders have the right to charge extra for their products.

It's always an encouragement to see music products being made locally. Sincerely, more power to you guys. I really mean it. But please, directly copying other people's innovations isn't going to put our country on the map. Like what one of the Wampler guys said when he found out that one of their pedals was directly ripped off, they would always welcome the thought of other people modifying their pedals' circuits and adding improvements to what they believe are already great products. That's the challenge to the local DIY/builders' community. Think big, guys. If you're really serious about making pedals, then build well thought-of and innovative products that will compete internationally.

No offense meant, guys. Just being honest and straightforward. Carry on.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2012, 11:53:21 PM by Poundcake »
"The LORD will save me, and we will play my music on stringed instruments all the days of our lives, at the house of the LORD." Isaiah 38:20


Offline pie-key

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #55 on: February 14, 2012, 12:27:56 AM »
How about dishonesty? saying that it has mods but eventually it has nothing? I mean aside from using someone's design. ehem excuse me is pagnanakaw right? eh yung pagsisinungaling? may tama ba dun? No Offense pero ok lang mag-DIY just don't claim it's fully your invention. not healthy. and like other fellow DIYers and including myself says, ACKNOWLEDGE and RESPECT the original builders. though si madbean ay isa ding cloner/DIYer at ang

Crunchbox(MiAudio)/Krunkee(MB)/Shredhead(MV)/Gobernador(TonePad)/Riot(suhr)/Severe(tonefreak)/ RedHead, SuperLead (LovePedal) kapal!/ at madami pang iba........

came from a single circuitry na may mga twist(mods/tweaks) which is a Marshall solid state amp dirt channel na nilagay sa stompbox at pinangalanang "GUV'NOR" ng marshal. pero lahat CLONES! ano ang ibig ko sabihin? well lahat to kumita! sumikat! at nakilala sa tunog pero hindi lahat ng gumagamit alam to. pero diba't DIYers at cloners din naman gumawa nito. IMO iba pa din ang gawa ng bawat cloner. kahit iisang circuit pa yan. ang pamimirata ay yung sakto ang pagkakagaya sa circuit o yung PCB wiring at piyesa na ginamit na malaki ang epekto sa kalalabasan ng ginawa which is sadly nagawa dito sa pinas.

I'm a designger myself japan made PCBs for a living, and DIY for me is a hobby, selling means your sharing a part of it to others. pero yung mamirata yun ang problema. ang pamimirata parang CDR-K*NG lang, REBRANDED. tsk tsk...
References:
BossingBoss/Spudmusic/Xelly/Poundcake/Fonzy/Joel_marcelo/Micsis/Voidman/Free2rock/
'57 Strat/DIY OD/Strymon TL/Eventide MF/Hardwire SN/TCE Polytune Mini/Princeton Chorus

Offline pie-key

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #56 on: February 14, 2012, 12:37:00 AM »
I'm gonna share all of my thoughts regarding this topic, so please bear with my longer-than-usual post.

Yup, it's really about ethics. Moreso, falsely claiming to be the innovator is a no-no. Basing his project on the MI Audio Crunch Box, Madbean designed his own PCB and defined the values of each component. Now someone directly copying Madbean's work and not giving credit to the real innovator and somehow claiming that all the tweaks done originated from his brain ain't so cool. It's such a shame that one's claim to fame for being a "tone scientist" had to come from directly copying another person's innovations. Moreover, I highly doubt it if Madbean earned even a few Pesos from each unit sold. I was a fan of that pedal for quite a while (I promoted it to everyone within my circle of influence) and I initially gave him the benefit of the doubt when he claimed that he added more components on the other side of the PCB... well, until I reverse-engineered it myself.

Most of the people here know me as a connoisseur of premium pedals but I'm actually very open-minded when it comes to modding, tweaking and so on. I just stick with international brands due to their inherently better resale value. Being an electronics engineer myself, I know the thrill of building electronic circuits and testing them at both signal (oscilloscope) and audio (actual testing) levels. The boutique guys who sell modded versions of classic pedals (Lovepedal, Tim Cochrane, Analogman, Keeley, etc.) all experienced that thrill as well; they did their own R&D for getting the results that they wanted to get. That "R&D" doesn't mean merely logging into FSB or DIY Stompboxes, downloading some circuit schematics, building one of each for "testing" if they works then mass-producing the circuits for personal profit. The ones who ripped off other circuits outright got (and are still getting) a lot of flak from the guitarists/music community for doing so. Globally, if I may add. John Landgraff and the Freekish Blues guys are just a few of them.

It doesn't matter if the modifications are very minimal; what really matters is that they didn't just stop at "Hey I just got a working pedal circuit online, lemme mass produce this for a quick buck!" They innovated; they used their brains to make classic designs sound and function better (e.g. Madbean's idea of bringing out the presence knob, Sean taking out the buffer circuit to create the Eternity, etc.). That's actually what the consumer base is paying for when buying boutique/small-shop pedals; it's the know-how and experience of those builders in designing pedals that function and sound better than the originals. Selling cloned pedals means that the consumer is paying P2.5k-3.5k for roughly P500 in parts, P2k-2.5k for labor and a big fat ZERO for innovation. If I didn't know crap about electronics, I'd rather ask someone knowledgeable to find a nice schematic for me, buy the components myself for P500 and go to my friendly neighborhood electronics guy (who probably has more experience in electronics than most of the guys here) and have him assemble it for me for P500 or maybe P1k even. Now if cheap price is the only consideration, then it can't get any cheaper than that.

It's the consumer's responsibility to judge if the differences do justify the extra cost. But really, there's nothing stopping anyone, including those in our local DIY scene, from adding a premium that they think would be worth their time and effort in meticulously improvising, developing and fabricating quality pedals. That's why I think that the more known boutique builders have the right to charge extra for their products.

It's always an encouragement to see music products being made locally. Sincerely, more power to you guys. I really mean it. But please, directly copying other people's innovations isn't going to put our country on the map. Like what one of the Wampler guys said when he found out that one of their pedals was directly ripped off, they would always welcome the thought of other people modifying their pedals' circuits and adding improvements to what they believe are already great products. That's the challenge to the local DIY/builders' community. Think big, guys. If you're really serious about making pedals, then build well thought-of and innovative products that will compete internationally.

No offense meant, guys. Just being honest and straightforward. Carry on.



ME! ME! ME! hehehehe
References:
BossingBoss/Spudmusic/Xelly/Poundcake/Fonzy/Joel_marcelo/Micsis/Voidman/Free2rock/
'57 Strat/DIY OD/Strymon TL/Eventide MF/Hardwire SN/TCE Polytune Mini/Princeton Chorus

Offline siore

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #57 on: February 14, 2012, 01:00:44 AM »
On tweaks then. Boutique builders. His experience, exposure, and knowledge of the music scene inspired him to come up with a modern version of a classic circuit. Only premium parts are used, handmade and in a controlled environment. Ok naman ung price tag of 10k pesos, if you factor his costs (labor, overhead, US regulation, etc) and shipping costs to get it here. Also, it's got nice reviews on ---, check out the thread.
Pinoy builder. It's just a friggin' Guv'nor with mosfet diodes and modified output buffer! I wouldn't pay 3k for that POS! Check out the --- thread that exposes the lame-a$s gutshots! How dare he try to sell that to unwitting buyers!
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 01:02:16 AM by siore »
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Offline Poundcake

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #58 on: February 14, 2012, 02:58:07 AM »
On tweaks then. Boutique builders. His experience, exposure, and knowledge of the music scene inspired him to come up with a modern version of a classic circuit. Only premium parts are used, handmade and in a controlled environment. Ok naman ung price tag of 10k pesos, if you factor his costs (labor, overhead, US regulation, etc) and shipping costs to get it here. Also, it's got nice reviews on ---, check out the thread.
Pinoy builder. It's just a friggin' Guv'nor with mosfet diodes and modified output buffer! I wouldn't pay 3k for that POS! Check out the --- thread that exposes the lame-a$s gutshots! How dare he try to sell that to unwitting buyers!

I hope it's clear that my opinions weren't born out of prejudice. Judging without due process (i.e. actually testing the pedals) is wrong. Even if your post is a sarcastic one, those factors that you mentioned give a lot of people enough reason to stick to products of companies that have more in-depth experience in the industry. More often than not, people will want to spend P7-8k on a pedal that sounds great, has great aftersales service and is built like a tank.

With so many builders just popping up nowadays, it's kinda hard to know which ones really know their craft. There may be DIY builders who don't exactly know everything that's happening in the circuits of the pedals that they build. "Just follow the schematics, use the right components as stated in the list of materials, and voila, instant product!" isn't a recipe for good aftersales. "Tweaking" a few components from existing circuits isn't as easy as it seems as if requires the builder to have a fair amount of knowledge on electronics and to perform lots of tests on his/her mods, but it sure is hella lot easier if you already have the schematics one click away.

Again, if local clones can match the quality of the builds of international companies (even durability/reliability; other users can attest to this one) without resorting to straight-up cloning, then they have all the right in the world to launch their own products not just here, but also internationally. I've tried a lot of local DIY builds and only a few really stood out in terms of sound and build quality, with the Shredhead being one of them. Yun nga lang, na-Madbean pala. If our local guys can come up with more original concepts and mods instead of just copying stuff from schematics online, then they'd do the whole Pinoy DIY community proud. There are a lot of ways to innovate and that means there are also a lot of interesting products that can be made.
"The LORD will save me, and we will play my music on stringed instruments all the days of our lives, at the house of the LORD." Isaiah 38:20

Offline stompnoise

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #59 on: February 14, 2012, 03:13:48 AM »
Yup, I also hope our pinoy builders can come up with something unique apart from doing clones or the standard overdrive/distortion stuff. take inspiration from brands like devi ever or take flight pedals.

Offline albumin

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #60 on: February 14, 2012, 03:58:52 AM »
dig ko pa naman yung SH... mejo nakakakonsensyang bumili... parang ang dating, bumili ako ng nakaw... i have nothing against the builder pero i would really like/love it if the SH (or in the Philippines made pedal)will become a unique and genuine Filipino conceptualized and made pedal. Kaya yan!
Ibanez GRGA11 - Buskers Tele - Vox Pathfinder 15R - Maxon GX10

Offline quaternotetriplet

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #61 on: February 14, 2012, 07:25:50 AM »


Most of the people here know me as a connoisseur of premium pedals but I'm actually very open-minded when it comes to modding, tweaking and so on. I just stick with international brands due to their inherently better resale value. Being an electronics engineer myself, I know the thrill of building electronic circuits and testing them at both signal (oscilloscope) and audio (actual testing) levels. The boutique guys who sell modded versions of classic pedals (Lovepedal, Tim Cochrane, Analogman, Keeley, etc.) all experienced that thrill as well; they did their own R&D for getting the results that they wanted to get. That "R&D" doesn't mean merely logging into FSB or DIY Stompboxes, downloading some circuit schematics, building one of each for "testing" if they works then mass-producing the circuits for personal profit. The ones who ripped off other circuits outright got (and are still getting) a lot of flak from the guitarists/music community for doing so. Globally, if I may add. John Landgraff and the Freekish Blues guys are just a few of them.

It doesn't matter if the modifications are very minimal; what really matters is that they didn't just stop at "Hey I just got a working pedal circuit online, lemme mass produce this for a quick buck!" They innovated; they used their brains to make classic designs sound and function better (e.g. Madbean's idea of bringing out the presence knob, Sean taking out the buffer circuit to create the Eternity, etc.). That's actually what the consumer base is paying for when buying boutique/small-shop pedals; it's the know-how and experience of those builders in designing pedals that function and sound better than the originals. Selling cloned pedals means that the consumer is paying P2.5k-3.5k for roughly P500 in parts, P2k-2.5k for labor and a big fat ZERO for innovation. If I didn't know crap about electronics, I'd rather ask someone knowledgeable to find a nice schematic for me, buy the components myself for P500 and go to my friendly neighborhood electronics guy (who probably has more experience in electronics than most of the guys here) and have him assemble it for me for P500 or maybe P1k even. Now if cheap price is the only consideration, then it can't get any cheaper than that.

It's the consumer's responsibility to judge if the differences do justify the extra cost. But really, there's nothing stopping anyone, including those in our local DIY scene, from adding a premium that they think would be worth their time and effort in meticulously improvising, developing and fabricating quality pedals. That's why I think that the more known boutique builders have the right to charge extra for their products.

It's always an encouragement to see music products being made locally. Sincerely, more power to you guys. I really mean it. But please, directly copying other people's innovations isn't going to put our country on the map. Like what one of the Wampler guys said when he found out that one of their pedals was directly ripped off, they would always welcome the thought of other people modifying their pedals' circuits and adding improvements to what they believe are already great products. That's the challenge to the local DIY/builders' community. Think big, guys. If you're really serious about making pedals, then build well thought-of and innovative products that will compete internationally.

No offense meant, guys. Just being honest and straightforward. Carry on.
you forgot Xotic pedals..

btw, maybe 500 for electronic parts, how about enclosures and 3pdt switch sir? hehehe :-D peace.
h

Offline kawayan_strat

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #62 on: February 14, 2012, 07:54:44 AM »
wait... so you can say that something like a Budda Wah is actually a pirated improved version of a Crybaby Wah?

or that a Lovepedal Eternity Burst is a pirated copy of a Tubescreamer?

im confused ... i mean, you don't say that Pepsi is a pirated version of Coke, right?
If you've seen the inside of a budda wah,(i mean the 1st version) that dunlop manufactures them(under the sticker),it's printed on the circuit board itself.

Offline namzer0

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #63 on: February 14, 2012, 07:57:03 AM »
wew... dami nagreply... :-D

siguro nga tama lang mag sabi kung clone ba o hindi yung pinagbebenta mong pedal, pero sure naman na pag sinabi mong ganun, eh pwedeng mawalan ka ng buyer or mawalan ng interest...

I think kung clones, the price should be lesser than the original... (kasi clone nga)

of course kung may mods, ok naman yan... as long as hindi isang part lang, ex. one value of a resistor, transistor, etc...  <_<(kahiya hiya naman yan)

well... iba naman ang dating nyan sa mga hindi marunong gumawa ng pedals... pero ikaw ang nakakaalam kung ikaw gumawa or copied schematic lang...
kung gusto mo talaga ibenta, test mo muna, pag nagustohan nya yung tunog, sige... bahala na kayong dalawa sa deal price...
>:D

Offline kawayan_strat

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #64 on: February 14, 2012, 08:03:30 AM »
So tell me.. The strymon timeline, eventide space, and modfactor are clones of what pedals exactly?
how about your other pedals? i did not name the ones you've mentioned....eh yung mga dati mo?

Offline emil_murillo

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #65 on: February 14, 2012, 08:05:27 AM »
I'm gonna share all of my thoughts regarding this topic, so please bear with my longer-than-usual post.

Yup, it's really about ethics. Moreso, falsely claiming to be the innovator is a no-no. Basing his project on the MI Audio Crunch Box, Madbean designed his own PCB and defined the values of each component. Now someone directly copying Madbean's work and not giving credit to the real innovator and somehow claiming that all the tweaks done originated from his brain ain't so cool. It's such a shame that one's claim to fame for being a "tone scientist" had to come from directly copying another person's innovations. Moreover, I highly doubt it if Madbean earned even a few Pesos from each unit sold. I was a fan of that pedal for quite a while (I promoted it to everyone within my circle of influence) and I initially gave him the benefit of the doubt when he claimed that he added more components on the other side of the PCB... well, until I reverse-engineered it myself.

Most of the people here know me as a connoisseur of premium pedals but I'm actually very open-minded when it comes to modding, tweaking and so on. I just stick with international brands due to their inherently better resale value. Being an electronics engineer myself, I know the thrill of building electronic circuits and testing them at both signal (oscilloscope) and audio (actual testing) levels. The boutique guys who sell modded versions of classic pedals (Lovepedal, Tim Cochrane, Analogman, Keeley, etc.) all experienced that thrill as well; they did their own R&D for getting the results that they wanted to get. That "R&D" doesn't mean merely logging into FSB or DIY Stompboxes, downloading some circuit schematics, building one of each for "testing" if they works then mass-producing the circuits for personal profit. The ones who ripped off other circuits outright got (and are still getting) a lot of flak from the guitarists/music community for doing so. Globally, if I may add. John Landgraff and the Freekish Blues guys are just a few of them.

It doesn't matter if the modifications are very minimal; what really matters is that they didn't just stop at "Hey I just got a working pedal circuit online, lemme mass produce this for a quick buck!" They innovated; they used their brains to make classic designs sound and function better (e.g. Madbean's idea of bringing out the presence knob, Sean taking out the buffer circuit to create the Eternity, etc.). That's actually what the consumer base is paying for when buying boutique/small-shop pedals; it's the know-how and experience of those builders in designing pedals that function and sound better than the originals. Selling cloned pedals means that the consumer is paying P2.5k-3.5k for roughly P500 in parts, P2k-2.5k for labor and a big fat ZERO for innovation. If I didn't know crap about electronics, I'd rather ask someone knowledgeable to find a nice schematic for me, buy the components myself for P500 and go to my friendly neighborhood electronics guy (who probably has more experience in electronics than most of the guys here) and have him assemble it for me for P500 or maybe P1k even. Now if cheap price is the only consideration, then it can't get any cheaper than that.

It's the consumer's responsibility to judge if the differences do justify the extra cost. But really, there's nothing stopping anyone, including those in our local DIY scene, from adding a premium that they think would be worth their time and effort in meticulously improvising, developing and fabricating quality pedals. That's why I think that the more known boutique builders have the right to charge extra for their products.

It's always an encouragement to see music products being made locally. Sincerely, more power to you guys. I really mean it. But please, directly copying other people's innovations isn't going to put our country on the map. Like what one of the Wampler guys said when he found out that one of their pedals was directly ripped off, they would always welcome the thought of other people modifying their pedals' circuits and adding improvements to what they believe are already great products. That's the challenge to the local DIY/builders' community. Think big, guys. If you're really serious about making pedals, then build well thought-of and innovative products that will compete internationally.

No offense meant, guys. Just being honest and straightforward. Carry on.

That's an A men...♥

Parang being a musician lang yan eh, everybody starts at copying (idolizing) but eventually when you decided to make it (karerin ba), everything will change & decide making your own trademark.. And while growing you start including actions like ► "Social Responsibility".. 

-peace ♥

Offline kawayan_strat

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #66 on: February 14, 2012, 08:11:42 AM »
I'm gonna share all of my thoughts regarding this topic, so please bear with my longer-than-usual post.

Yup, it's really about ethics. Moreso, falsely claiming to be the innovator is a no-no. Basing his project on the MI Audio Crunch Box, Madbean designed his own PCB and defined the values of each component. Now someone directly copying Madbean's work and not giving credit to the real innovator and somehow claiming that all the tweaks done originated from his brain ain't so cool. It's such a shame that one's claim to fame for being a "tone scientist" had to come from directly copying another person's innovations. Moreover, I highly doubt it if Madbean earned even a few Pesos from each unit sold. I was a fan of that pedal for quite a while (I promoted it to everyone within my circle of influence) and I initially gave him the benefit of the doubt when he claimed that he added more components on the other side of the PCB... well, until I reverse-engineered it myself.

Most of the people here know me as a connoisseur of premium pedals but I'm actually very open-minded when it comes to modding, tweaking and so on. I just stick with international brands due to their inherently better resale value. Being an electronics engineer myself, I know the thrill of building electronic circuits and testing them at both signal (oscilloscope) and audio (actual testing) levels. The boutique guys who sell modded versions of classic pedals (Lovepedal, Tim Cochrane, Analogman, Keeley, etc.) all experienced that thrill as well; they did their own R&D for getting the results that they wanted to get. That "R&D" doesn't mean merely logging into FSB or DIY Stompboxes, downloading some circuit schematics, building one of each for "testing" if they works then mass-producing the circuits for personal profit. The ones who ripped off other circuits outright got (and are still getting) a lot of flak from the guitarists/music community for doing so. Globally, if I may add. John Landgraff and the Freekish Blues guys are just a few of them.[/b]

It doesn't matter if the modifications are very minimal; what really matters is that they didn't just stop at "Hey I just got a working pedal circuit online, lemme mass produce this for a quick buck!" They innovated; they used their brains to make classic designs sound and function better (e.g. Madbean's idea of bringing out the presence knob, Sean taking out the buffer circuit to create the Eternity, etc.). That's actually what the consumer base is paying for when buying boutique/small-shop pedals; it's the know-how and experience of those builders in designing pedals that function and sound better than the originals. Selling cloned pedals means that the consumer is paying P2.5k-3.5k for roughly P500 in parts, P2k-2.5k for labor and a big fat ZERO for innovation. If I didn't know crap about electronics, I'd rather ask someone knowledgeable to find a nice schematic for me, buy the components myself for P500 and go to my friendly neighborhood electronics guy (who probably has more experience in electronics than most of the guys here) and have him assemble it for me for P500 or maybe P1k even. Now if cheap price is the only consideration, then it can't get any cheaper than that.

It's the consumer's responsibility to judge if the differences do justify the extra cost. But really, there's nothing stopping anyone, including those in our local DIY scene, from adding a premium that they think would be worth their time and effort in meticulously improvising, developing and fabricating quality pedals. That's why I think that the more known boutique builders have the right to charge extra for their products.

It's always an encouragement to see music products being made locally. Sincerely, more power to you guys. I really mean it. But please, directly copying other people's innovations isn't going to put our country on the map. Like what one of the Wampler guys said when he found out that one of their pedals was directly ripped off, they would always welcome the thought of other people modifying their pedals' circuits and adding improvements to what they believe are already great products. That's the challenge to the local DIY/builders' community. Think big, guys. If you're really serious about making pedals, then build well thought-of and innovative products that will compete internationally.

No offense meant, guys. Just being honest and straightforward. Carry on.
Very well said,Ian!

Offline plugzzzz

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #67 on: February 14, 2012, 08:36:41 AM »
Who said I was ok with anyone doing it? Local or otherwise, I'm against it.

bakit ka bumibili ng fuzzes?? all of them are clones ng fuzzface/bender/muff... supporter ka don't deny it
Kapag merong tanong o ikay naguguluhan igoogle mo

PLUGELECTRONIC'S RECTORIZER

Offline Musikerochan

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #68 on: February 14, 2012, 09:51:12 AM »
hehe, to be honest, im an electronics noob and showing me the same circuit in different enclosures would make me go "are they different?"

-*-

still though... they sound different, just like Coke tastes different from Pepsi. i wouldn't go as far as calling it "pirated" ... perhaps "influenced" is the right word.

a coupla resistors/diodes/trannies changed will make any circuit sound different. the  COT, for example, is based on the old Electra schematic. other incarnations of the COT are just that: same circuit, some parts just changed.



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P500 for parts for a pedal? really?  :-D siguro. i can build me a nice LPB/MOSFET boost on a perfboard with that budget. plastic box, cheap switch. nevermind the led for the status. can i gig with it? maybe. can i gig with it OVER AND OVER AGAIN? maybe. or maybe not.

i guess the point here is what justifies the pricing of ANY pedal? my answer to that would be EFFORT. the effort put in BREADBOARDING, repeated listening tests, and actual manufacture, not only the parts and sourcing out (shipping, ordering, etc.).

as for premium parts: why, are Asian electrons inferior to American electrons?

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sa totoo lang tis difficult now to "create" new circuit topologies based on how semicons work kasi more or less may nakaisip na. and usually how a particular chip functions and how to use them are clearly indicated in the datasheet as well. it's the details that define beauty.

or be Retro Tsanel and manufacture your own fuzz chip.



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it's really recommended to read the story again of Gomer Pyle.

sometimes i feel like this:



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some healthy dose of "legality vs. morality" chenes, courtesy of CJ (very timely response, i say)

Quote
Everybody has their own take on this, in terms of morality. And surprisingly, there are quite a few different takes on the legal aspects. :scratch:

As far as I've been able to tell, you are legally in the clear (at least in America) as long as you don't try to sell your product as if it were the product of another company. So if you sold a pedal and claimed "This is an actual Klon overdrive made by Klon-Siberia", that would be fraud. And I do believe if you instead said "This is a pedal based on the Klon circuit but is not an actual Klon", you'd be in the clear. Much ado has been made of late about using other company's brand names in marketing. As far as I've been able to tell through my own research, it is totally legal to use a competitor's brand or product names, even if trademarked, in your own marketing provided that it is for comparative purposes. You see this a lot of store-brand over-the-counter medications, such as ibuprofen and cold medicine.

Keep in mind that my opinion is not legal advice and should be used as such. If you have a serious business idea, you should consult with an attorney in your locale.

The legal aspects can be murky, but the moral side of things is a definite quagmire. It's a very subjective determination, I'm afraid.

In my opinion, there is no reasonable argument to make a dead-on clone that: 1) is at the same price point as the original, and 2) does not in some way improve on the original.



Offline milzer

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #69 on: February 14, 2012, 09:56:57 AM »
LOL ka Fuzzmaster!  :lol:

Offline Musikerochan

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #70 on: February 14, 2012, 10:01:51 AM »
lol ka din ehhe, walang fuzzmaster dito. master sardines meron :-D

ay meron pala. labpedal has one.

Offline milzer

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #71 on: February 14, 2012, 10:06:08 AM »
lol ka din ehhe, walang fuzzmaster dito. master sardines meron :-D

ay meron pala. labpedal has one.

nyahahaha

Offline evhul

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #72 on: February 14, 2012, 10:50:18 AM »
Now i get it. The most popular  diy pedal is now the most hated by local diyers?

I thought shreadhead was really a pinoy masterpiece.

Offline quaternotetriplet

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #73 on: February 14, 2012, 11:02:07 AM »
lol ka din ehhe, walang fuzzmaster dito. master sardines meron :-D

ay meron pala. labpedal has one.
apir!
h

Offline Musikerochan

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Re: Is it OK to sell DIY clones?
« Reply #74 on: February 14, 2012, 11:21:58 AM »
hate is a strong word.