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The Musician Forums => Music Technology & Pro Audio => Topic started by: skunkyfunk on September 03, 2007, 10:53:11 AM
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Sometimes when I am bored in my studio I try downloading as many amp and amp sim clips available on the net. While most amp sim clips tend to be less "airy", in a mix scenario, the less-airiness seems to be thrown out of the window. Add a tad more reverb, you're quite ok.
But here's the thing about amp clips and amp sims... granting that both methods are done correctly, they start to sound "alike" because you're listening to them on similar volume levels. For instance, if you are maxing out your monitors with 6" woofers, you may not feel the bottom of a dimed 100W Plexi through a 4x12 cab. Slap in a Plexi patch on your PODXT, you would notice that there is a lot of similarity with the sound.
That is because of the Fletcher Munson effect - we hear things differently at different volume levels. In order to appreciate recording uber loud instruments (liked cranked amps for instance), the ability to play the recordings back just as loud as the source (granting you record the instruments properly) is the means to satisfaction.
Another benefit of using real amps vs. DI modellers depicting the Fletcher-Munson effect is during tracking. Say you have a huge amp in the live room, and you snake your guitar cable to the amp from the control room, and do takes there. From experience, I honestly think that some nuances are more apparent during tracking despite the isolation of the amp. But once it is playback time, modeller sounds catch up with recorded amp sounds.
I am not here to say amps are better than modellers to avoid the flaming, I am just here to say that in order to appreciate modellers, the ability to reproduce the same volume levels of the amp it models helps in inspiring the player to get the best takes. Or better yet, use an amp.
Peace!
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The use of an amp vs a modeler affects the guitar player more than the recording guy!
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Oh man... here we go again. Someone pass the popcorn!
Skunk, some great tunes have been recorded thru a 15 watt practice amp. In most cases, it wasn't the volume and size of the amp and cab, or the 'quality', or the brand or whatever BS you allow yourself to believe. It was always the sound. How can you resort to FM curves when some even go thru the extent of putting cabs inside isolation cabinets so that they don't disturb the neighbors? So where is that FM curve when the cab is in iso, or the cab is under a think blanket so your mic doesn't capture the room reflections? It's only a placebo effect if all you want to feel is the volume hitting you.
Remember, often during mixing, the sound of a cab when soloed, is not what you expect to hear because sometimes, in the context of the mix, that sometimes thin soloed sound is what works for the song.
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Easy, Kit. He did say this:
From experience, I honestly think that some nuances are more apparent during tracking despite the isolation of the amp. But once it is playback time, modeller sounds catch up with recorded amp sounds.
As a guy who plays guitar myself (non-professionally), I have to agree. I play differently if plugged into an amp compared to plugged into a modeler. I'm not talking anything about the sound that's produced (and can be recorded), but the way I play.
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The thing is, it's so easy to get distracted by Fletcher Munson curves, eq settings and other nitpicks that one loses sight of the performance. That's why modelers and reamping were created, so that one can get into groove and belt out a ripping performance, then massage the tone later. I don't think George Martin would have stopped John in the middle of a take since the FM curves were a bit off.
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dang skunk lahat ng forum at least may 4x for each,sipag mo pre.Meron bang Threader of the year contest ba dito hahaha
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Im gonna stick to the Guy-Pip effect as opposed to Fletche-MoonMe effect
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And pls Skunk dont bring up why Ed Kramer or Mr.Martin didnt have that technology crap we have today BS.The Beatles songs that you are listening today on CD or that Are you Experienced? album have been DIGITALLY remastered 100x for your listening pleasure by software such as Seqouia and others,that's why they sound soooo good.The guy who remastered Jimi's axis bold album was even featured on Discovery channel.You should have heard the original master tapes,those plexis sounded like plaster.Dont get me wrong,all my amps are toobs,but digital is here to stay.Those digital hisses you hear?Theyre lack of sleep from posting endless threads.Its a lost cause man give it up.Peace to you.
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most of the time a guitar performance is inspired by raging tones coming from an amp cranked to ungodly levels. guitarists tend to like it when they feel the vibrations from the amp.
however i doubt that a regular listener would crank his compnent to high heavens like a guitar player would his amp.
to not get fooled by the FM curve, i listen/mix at different levels ...
But here's the thing about amp clips and amp sims... granting that both methods are done correctly, they start to sound "alike" because you're listening to them on similar volume levels. For instance, if you are maxing out your monitors with 6" woofers, you may not feel the bottom of a dimed 100W Plexi through a 4x12 cab. Slap in a Plexi patch on your PODXT, you would notice that there is a lot of similarity with the sound.
we usually dont mix guitars in their full eq spectrum anyway. experience-wise though, i still prefer recording amps. however, if i finally get myself a POD i would definitely start doing things differently ;)
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And pls Skunk dont bring up why Ed Kramer or Mr.Martin didnt have that technology crap we have today BS.The Beatles songs that you are listening today on CD or that Are you Experienced? album have been DIGITALLY remastered 100x for your listening pleasure by software such as Seqouia and others,that's why they sound soooo good.
So are you saying the vinyl dudes who say that the remasters of the above mentioned material are crap are lying?
The guy who remastered Jimi's axis bold album was even featured on Discovery channel.You should have heard the original master tapes,those plexis sounded like plaster.Dont get me wrong,all my amps are toobs,but digital is here to stay.Those digital hisses you hear?Theyre lack of sleep from posting endless threads.Its a lost cause man give it up.Peace to you.
Master tapes? Do you really know what was presented in the Discovery Channel? Are they MASTER TAPES or are they MULTI-TRACK TAPES? We can agree that to some extent, mastering can enhance a mix, but it also CAN DESTROY a classic mix. Why are people requesting a re-master for Peter Frampton's comes Alive CD? Why are they saying the Led Zep remasters killed the Bonham drum sound? I know there is a problem with Digital Media in terms of accurate sound reproduction in terms of FEEL. And many agree to that.
And the mere fact that mastering cured the problems in the mix means the tracking was done well, despite the technological problems of the 60s. And don't get me wrong, my idea of liking amps in a recording stems from the fact that most of guitar heroes (60s - present) use them. While some admittedly use PODs, they use them not to gain their main sound.
And the topic of this thread is about the Fletcher-Munson effect and not your idols Guy and Pip.
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Skunk, some great tunes have been recorded thru a 15 watt practice amp.
Sir may I ask what songs are you referring to and what amps were used for such?
In most cases, it wasn't the volume and size of the amp and cab, or the 'quality', or the brand or whatever BS you allow yourself to believe. It was always the sound.
Have to agree, but I am not saying Marshall is better than a Mesa or some uber-expensive boutique amp is bestestest for the recording. All I am saying is that having the ability to hear different amps vs. modellers gives the artist the power to discern what can make him perform his best during tracking. Billy Gibbons and Joe Perry have recorded through solidstate Marshall Lead 12 amps (12W amps with 10" speakers) but they also used uber-loud Marshall Plexis as well. It was all about the song and using what works for it.
How can you resort to FM curves when some even go thru the extent of putting cabs inside isolation cabinets so that they don't disturb the neighbors? So where is that FM curve when the cab is in iso, or the cab is under a think blanket so your mic doesn't capture the room reflections? It's only a placebo effect if all you want to feel is the volume hitting you.
Sir with all due respect I have to disagree. When people put 4x12s in iso cabs, the main goal is to get the most minimal room reflections, which alters the sound, or if the band plays live, that is to minimize bleed. True enough. But that doesn't mean I will be less-inspired if I tame down the volume of a 100W monster to a more "recordable" level. So is Slash doing things wrongly when he plays in front of his half-stack beside wedge stage monitors blasting through him, while an extension cab is placed in iso booth where his tones are being recorded? Of course he goes back and forth from the iso, live and control rooms to see if there are any discrepancies with the recorded or produced tones. Say I were an engineer for him, I guess he would be offended if I would tell him, "Slash, I think we can nail the same tone if we would use a PODXT so I guess we're wasting time setting this rig up."
Remember, often during mixing, the sound of a cab when soloed, is not what you expect to hear because sometimes, in the context of the mix, that sometimes thin soloed sound is what works for the song.
And vice-versa. Sometimes a scooped-up guitar sound may initially sound thin, but for a mix it can sound good. So that is why there should be test record tones over a mix. That is not just to hear the soloed-out sound, but to hear if it works within the song's context as well.
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While some admittedly use PODs, they use them not to gain their main sound.
Dude, some of the pros DO use the pod to get their main sound. Don't delude yourself into believing otherwise.
About 15 watt amps, Jethro Tull's Barre recorded 3 albums: Crest of a Knave, Under Wraps, and Rock Island with a 15-watt Marshall Studio which he took off from the combo case and had rack mounted. Joe Walsh recorded with a 15-watt Fender Champ for some of the Eagles albums. Jimmy Page used a Supro Trojan for the first Led Zep album. I was reading somewhere that Jeff Beck used at 15-watt amp but I can't find that specific article. Even Duran Duran's John Taylor used a 15 watter for his solo album (if memory serves me right, that was mentioned in an EM article). I could go on but you could also google that yourself.
Going back to Fletcher-Munson, just the other night, I saw the FM curve in all it's horrible live glory. It was an indie production where several bands (11 I think) played 3 songs each. 3 or 4 bands who took the middle slots all played in screamo style. All I can say that it was a mudfest of sound with nothing intelligible since every instrument, and even vocals, was going on full spectrum. The bands after that selection sounded lame since I think the house tech dialed down the PA volume or our ears got accustomed to the sonic assault. Either way, the last 3 bands didn't get a fair chance at being heard properly.
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Just to break the record even more, Clapton used a $20 battery-powered Pignose amp for the Layla sessions, while Duanne used a 10watt Fender Champ... not the most imposing DB deliverers as such, eh. :wink:
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Master tapes? Do you really know what was presented in the Discovery Channel? Are they MASTER TAPES or are they MULTI-TRACK TAPES? We can agree that to some extent, mastering can enhance a mix, but it also CAN DESTROY a classic mix. Why are people requesting a re-master for Peter Frampton's comes Alive CD? Why are they saying the Led Zep remasters killed the Bonham drum sound? I know there is a problem with Digital Media in terms of accurate sound reproduction in terms of FEEL. And many agree to that.
DUH,When I say tapes were you thinking of your cassette tapes?When I mentioned the word MASTER that didnt give you a clue?And wtf now your questioning me if I really knew what was presented in discvery Channel?Dude i watched it on english not in portugese.Parang gusto mo palabasin hindi ko naintindihan yung pinanood ko?FYI hndi ako yung nagmumukang [chewbacca] dito sa forum.Honestly u never heard of the Layla sessions when they used a 5 or 10 watt amp?Baka multuhin ka ni Duane.
ps what do u have against guy n pip?Bubot at Vi ka ba? :evil:
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googled :D
Elvis Costello
"You know, a lot of playing the guitar in a wild fashion has to do with a lack of fear. If you're incredibly dexterous, which I am not, obviously you have the facility to do that. But when we were recording 'Dust,' I was sitting in the control room with my Silvertone guitar running out into a little Sears Roebuck 15-watt amp, with some kind of distortion device between them-and somewhere in the middle of it, I just went mad. And the guys came in and said, 'Wow, that was quite good!' " He laughs. "It was like they were kind of surprised, you know! And when we listened back, it had sort of the right kind of fire-it wasn't, like, elegant or anything.
Vic Flick
"For 'The James Bond Theme' original recording, I used a Clifford Essex Paragon Cello Bodied F Hole guitar fitted with a DeAmond Guitar Pick Up. This was played through a DeAmond Volume Pedal into a Vox 15 Watt Amplifier. The orchestra was recorded in one pass - no 48 track recording then! This gave the guitar sound a special added dimension due to the spill from the guitar amp picked up by adjacent microphones, adding high end and other ambient qualities. Needless to say, different recordings of Bond have had different feels to them. I worked hard to combine my nostalgic memories of back then with a discreet but moving updating of everyone's favourite tunes for JAMES BOND NOW. Enjoy!
Artist: JANDEK
Title: Put My Dream On This Planet
Label: CORWOOD INDUSTRIES
Format: CD
Price: $7.00
Catalog #: COR 0767
"Record number twenty-nine in the ever growing oeuvre of Jandek, and it's certainly a head-scratcher. No guitar, no drums, no piano, just him rambling on for a small eternity in a sort of song/speech mode on two lengthy and one very short tracks; all of it sounding kind of like it was recorded though a 15 watt Peavey Bandit amp with a broken reverb spring and a noise-gate pedal. Eerie (some might say annoying or god awful), almost bluesy hiss bathed vocals are separated by some rather lengthy periods of complete silence, covering some of the places and 'feelings' that populate his other records so vividly. Reading into it a bit (for in this place everything means something), we see that his last record ended with 'The Beginning' (!) -- a 15+ vocal-less (!) piano 'meditation' which certainly clouded the waters when it dropped -- which can now be viewed as an intro to this new a capella recording...you get the idea. So then, as concrete poetry it's not so hot, and as some kind of Out Blues piece, it's actually rather dire, but viewed in the microscope of the Jandekian Canon, it's pretty massive, and that's saying something too." -- Billy Kiely
:D
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i have been considering a small toob amp lately, something i could drive to its limit without getting me evicted.
the way i see it there are two major concerns that crop up here:
1. the guitarists monitor (and his monitoring levels)
2. the actual recorded sound
we all know that the actual sound of the amp is not EXACTLY what we get when recording. a lot of the recorded sound will also depend on our choice of recording equipment and the way we position the mic/s in the room. in any case we CAN get close to the amp sound. sometimes strangely the amp sounds different in the room compared to the recorded signal.
it's easy to circumvent the FM effect when recording, and i don't see how it can "fool" an experienced engineer during an A/B test... unless one exposes himself to super loud levels for a considerable period of time inside the tracking room (which might temporarily impair his/her judgment).
like i said, we don't normally listen at the levels we record our amps (lord, we'd probably go deaf in six months).
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I have news: The ZVex Nano amp is a 0.5 Watt all-tube monster. But owners agree IT IS LOUD ENOUGH TO PUSH A 100W 4x12.
Let me get this straight. I have used practice amps, and some sound GREAT. All the more if you hear a cranked up Fender Champ or Supro. But everyone seems to miss the point. I am not all for loudness. What I am saying is that the effect of using different amps makes us appreciate the concept of the Fletcher Munson effect. And by saying that Joe Walsh, Duane Allman, and all those guitar greats, used practice (tube most of the time) amps in the studio is testament that the air being pushed by amps is what they enjoy most. But by using a DI modeller, all of a sudden, a 100W Plexi patch, or a 5W Champ patch, work on the same volume level, depending on the monitoring conditions in the studio. And for me, I don't get the point when people bring up the concept of practice amps being used in the studio as, in the first place, I've been saying it time and again that using different amps in different songs in different production scenarios produces different levels of inspiration for different players. Does loudness have something to do with it? YES, IN A HEARTBEAT. But more than the volume, is the character of different amplifiers and how they sound so differently at different volumes. Modellers do not exemplify this trait as you are working within the loudest volume level your monitoring can muster.
When I was in 3rd year high school, I had an El Cheapo 10W Genesis Amp. After 2 years I owned a glorious Zoom 1010 pedal. For some reason, I was able to fake some EVH sounds with those gear, because whenever I listened to a Boombox, they sounded similar. But what I did not know was once I start recording my rig using a mic and a cassette recorded, it would sound completely different from EVH's Plexis. That was because I had no idea of the Fletcher Munson phenomenon.
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Just to break the record even more, Clapton used a $20 battery-powered Pignose amp for the Layla sessions, while Duanne used a 10watt Fender Champ... not the most imposing DB deliverers as such, eh. :wink:
Yup, and Clapton used a 50W JTM45 (or was it a 1987x 50W) during the Cream Sessions. In this case, I am saying different amps for different tastes for different periods.
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DUH,When I say tapes were you thinking of your cassette tapes?
YES. :-D
Seriously what I was asking was if they were presenting the mixdowns or individual tracks. Because almost every remastering project for 4-track classic recordings necessitate cleaning up the individual tracks.
Parang gusto mo palabasin hindi ko naintindihan yung pinanood ko?
YES :-D
FYI hndi ako yung nagmumukang [chewbacca] dito sa forum.
I don't think nagmumukhang [chewbacca] ang isang tao kapag may iba kang opinyon sa nararami.
Honestly u never heard of the Layla sessions when they used a 5 or 10 watt amp?Baka multuhin ka ni Duane.
You don't have to list down all the amps used in each and every classic recording in existence. It is the variety of these amps (both timbre and volume) which makes us appreciate the tracking experience if given the chance to use each and every one of them for different projects. With modellers, you're stuck with one domain of loudness levels unless you use some amp with it like an Atomic Reactor 112 (which needs miking).
ps what do u have against guy n pip?Bubot at Vi ka ba? :evil:
I am more Nestor-Nida.
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I dunno, but as a player and a non-engineer, here's my humble take on the matter. A bit OT, I know. My apologies.
Modellers try to cop the sound of an amp on tape (as opposed to the sound of an amp in front of you), and as such, I generally feel that they can be one-dimensional in that sense because there are other things that happen when you play through an amp and get miked. I feel that most of which can't be captured by modelers. I dunno, but to connect it to the FM curve, I feel that most modelers try to compensate for it by raising some of the underemphasized frequencies when playing at low volumes. I guess that's one of the factors why some people consider it to be unnatural because the frequencies that are supposed to be more emphasized in a high volume scenario are being boosted in a low volume context.
BUT will that stop me from using a POD? No. I'll take it as another sound source, period. If it can give me something that I'm looking for and the amps can't give it, it's going to be an easy source, and vice versa. What's saddening though, is that people look for that device first before even checking out the amps,which is fine if you're all for convenience. But if you're really serious about tone, then you'll try out all options - POD, direct and amps all included.
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I don't think nagmumukhang [chewbacca] ang isang tao kapag may iba kang opinyon sa nararami.
bakit ikaw ba tinutukoy ko?Tinamaan ka ba?Kaya nga walang hospital para jan eh :-D :-D :-D :-D
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bakit ikaw ba tinutukoy ko?Tinamaan ka ba?Kaya nga walang hospital para jan eh :-D :-D :-D :-D
Bakit sinabi ko bang ako?
(http://www.coldheartedtruth.com/media/please%20do%20not%20feed%20the%20trolls.jpg)
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Modellers try to cop the sound of an amp on tape (as opposed to the sound of an amp in front of you), and as such, I generally feel that they can be one-dimensional in that sense because there are other things that happen when you play through an amp and get miked. I feel that most of which can't be captured by modelers. I dunno, but to connect it to the FM curve, I feel that most modelers try to compensate for it by raising some of the underemphasized frequencies when playing at low volumes. I guess that's one of the factors why some people consider it to be unnatural because the frequencies that are supposed to be more emphasized in a high volume scenario are being boosted in a low volume context.
That's what i was pointing out.
BUT will that stop me from using a POD? No. I'll take it as another sound source, period. If it can give me something that I'm looking for and the amps can't give it, it's going to be an easy source, and vice versa. What's saddening though, is that people look for that device first before even checking out the amps,which is fine if you're all for convenience. But if you're really serious about tone, then you'll try out all options - POD, direct and amps all included.
Using a POD is just another tool. But the way I look at it, some people tend to look at it as a cure-all, and quite frankly, others even mark it as a fate sealer to a miked-up amp setup.
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you can google all your life and quote all the text book in the world still nothing can change everyone's opinion,and stop using the words"everyones missing the point",Its malignantly annoying.When I was learning Clapton and heard about the Layla sessions and the famous pignose amp,I was flabberghasted.Ikaw na suppose to be some kinda sound engineer or whatever was totally oblivious about it.Dapat that event was suppose to be in every sound engineer's bingo book.Sayang lang mga text book at kaka google mo pards,madami pang palay....
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Bakit sinabi ko bang ako?
(http://www.coldheartedtruth.com/media/please%20do%20not%20feed%20the%20trolls.jpg)
bakit ikaw ba tinutukoy ko?Tinamaan ka ba?Kaya nga walang hospital para jan eh :-D :-D :-D :-D
thats a nice family pic hahaha daughter staring at dad?thanks for sharing
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you can google all your life and quote all the text book in the world still nothing can change everyone's opinion,and stop using the words"everyones missing the point",Its malignantly annoying.
Then you better stop reading.
When I was learning Clapton and heard about the Layla sessions and the famous pignose amp,I was flabberghasted.Ikaw na suppose to be some kinda sound engineer or whatever was totally oblivious about it. Dapat that event was suppose to be in every sound engineer's bingo book.
Now this is ridiculous. You don't need to tell me what Clapton or Duane or some emo gayfag used in the studio to get his tone because I know for a fact that guitarplayers, (especially the rich and famous ones with much gear at their disposal), have a wider tone palette hence they have more options for a recording session. Tom Scholz even used this DI guitar principle with Boston way way back before digital modelling. You've got a selection of loud amps, soft amps, big and small, with different timbres. Now, what is the thing that modellers cannot do? APPRECIATE THE DIFFERENT VOLUME LEVELS IN THAT HUGE PALETTE. Now if that doesn't matter to the artist then good for him. But that doesn't mean you should ditch amps for a recording.
Marami pang palay...
Whoa thank you Mr. Know-it-all. Next time I seek recording advice I'll call you. Lahat tayo marami pang palay...
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thats a nice family pic hahaha daughter staring at dad?thanks for sharing
WELL THAT'S BELOW THE BELT. DON'T YOU EVER SAY A MORONIC STATEMENT ABOUT MY FAMILY YOU IDIOT.
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Hold the flames and settle the heat over PM!
What Skunk's not pointing at is:
POD < AMP
He's just saying:
POD ≠ AMP
which I think everyone agrees to. Skunk attributes the difference (or some of it) to FM, which Skunk is emphasizing application on the tracking part of the recording activity.
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Whoa thank you Mr. Know-it-all. Next time I seek recording advice I'll call you. Lahat tayo marami pang palay...
You are welcome,dont you have clients to attend to so u could apply what uv learned from me rather than sit and waste yer time googling?Business must be good huh,excuse myself while i noodle with my precious POD,har har har
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You are welcome,dont you have clients to attend to so u could apply what uv learned from me rather than sit and waste yer time googling?Business must be good huh,excuse myself while i noodle with my precious POD,har har har
It's none of your business if I wanna slack off or spend only 2 hours of sleep in a day for recording. After all you're not the one who's supposed to pay my bills. You megalomaniac.
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WELL THAT'S BELOW THE BELT. DON'T YOU EVER SAY A MORONIC STATEMENT ABOUT MY FAMILY YOU IDIOT.
Whats wrong with the picture,u look good naman ahh,napipikon ka na ba?Is that the best u can do?Call me idiot?Hahahaha what a lamer,keep em comin Einstein
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It's none of your business if I wanna slack off or spend only 2 hours of sleep in a day for recording. After all you're not the one who's supposed to pay my bills. You megalomaniac.
wow na google mo din ba ang word na megalomaniac.....sge pa more more!hahahah
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wow na google mo din ba ang word na megalomaniac.....sge pa more more!hahahah
Dude, it appears you're the one who has a problem. Philmusic is an outlet of mine and not my life. Moreso attending to your pissings are not why I came to this forum. Bahala na Diyos sa iyo dahi upakan mo na ako huwag lang pamilya ko. Bakit guwapo ka ba? Maganda ba asawa mo? Maganda ba mga anak mo?
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Hold the flames and settle the heat over PM!
What Skunk's not pointing at is:
POD < AMP
He's just saying:
POD ≠ AMP
which I think everyone agrees to. Skunk attributes the difference (or some of it) to FM, which Skunk is emphasizing application on the tracking part of the recording activity.
Well, at least what I've learned is that for some the difference doesn't matter.
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Dude, it appears you're the one who has a problem. Philmusic is an outlet of mine and not my life. Moreso attending to your pissings are not why I came to this forum. Bahala na Diyos sa iyo dahi upakan mo na ako huwag lang pamilya ko. Bakit guwapo ka ba? Maganda ba asawa mo? Maganda ba mga anak mo?
Answer to all your questions?YEAH BABY
bakit inano ko pamilya mo,It was intended for you,all you,remember this thread is yours,all the glory and praises,
on the contrary ang ganda nga ng anak mo.Sana nag mana ka sa kanya,then u got it all!
And to answer all your questions?Freakin YEAH
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Lessoned learned,defense is the best offense,thanks for the troll thingy,it back fired huh
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Answer to all your questions?YEAH BABY
bakit inano ko pamilya mo,It was intended for you,all you,remember this thread is yours,all the glory and praises,
on the contrary ang ganda nga ng anak mo.Sana nag mana ka sa kanya,then u got it all!
And to answer all your questions?Freakin YEAH
So now we have a self-confessed narcissist. Don't ever mention my family needlessly because I swear to God I'll wish your ass be kicked.
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Lessoned learned,defense is the best offense,thanks for the troll thingy,it back fired huh
Why, aren't you trolling? Trolling is an act hijo. At first you were bordering on irrelevance. And it appeared that you were already picking on me, hence the troll pic. But that had nothing to do with how you look (uy pogi daw siya) so now what you do is say it is a family pic of ours.
Oh btw, my son is guwapo. My wife is pretty.
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still spewing nonsense to the bitter end,ur posting of troll is not out of the ordinary,its parallel to all your nonsense posting here,a waste of bandwith.My job here is done for now,asta manana
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This is getting ridiculous! First flames and now personal attacks and insults. Chill people!
Dodj, you like tube amps and big cabs, and we appreciate your preference for those equipment. I like a good tube amp as much as anyone else and when an amp is incapable of making me hear what I need to hear during a performance, I tend to play less inspired... (expired would be a better term in some cases). Point is, WE UNDERSTAND YOU. You would get less flames if you extend the same degree of understanding to others, and maybe even appreciate their efforts.
Now, there is no need to point out that one technology is better than the other because it's all relative. Even at times, it's all inter-related. Both digital and analog have their advantages and disadvantages. Tubes and analog may be better for some while simulations may be better in other instances. As recordists, we should put aside our preferences and try to get the best tone with what is presented to us by our clients. If we can't do it, then we give it to someone who can.
The F-M curves have a direct bearing on volume. Our ears are more sensitive to frequencies from 1 to 6 khz, which is where intelligibility lies. The loudness switch or setting on some hifi systems are an attempt to compensate for the perceived loss of low and high frequencies during low volume settings. At lower volumes, we tend to hear less of the other frequencies so we often compensate by putting the familiar smiley curve on most graphic eq's, or we engage the loudness switch.
So where does the F-M curve fit in all of this? Practically, it doesn't if you are miking up a cab since what will matter is the type of mic and the position you are putting it in - a mic has no F-M curve, but it does have a frequency response curve. How about amp sims? Again, it doesn't matter since at what point in an ampsim will the F-M curves matter? Only at the monitors and to the guy listening at the mixing position.
So how about guitarists? Again, this is relative because sound levels decrease exponentially in proportion to the distance from the source. Not only that but there is also the approx 1 ms delay for every foot of distance one is from a cabinet. After that, there is the interplay of sound from wall and floor reflections as well as the interaction of frequencies (subtle comb filtering). By close miking a cab, you tend to capture differently from what a guitarist is hearing, or to be exact, what a guitarist perceives to be hearing. Miking techniques have been developed in an attempt to capture every possible nuance from the guitarists position but often this is impractical in most recording situations.
Amp sims attempt to recreate the interaction of sound waves by including cabinet simulations as well. They can also simulate mic placement as well as add room interaction. If one is really anal, add convolution to the mix by getting an impulse sample of your favorite room, mic and amp. Will it sound close? While it won't be exact, some simulations definitely come unnervingly close.
About not getting the point with regards to using practice amps? Those little monsters will tend to distort earlier than larger powered amps and cabs especially when played loud. It is this characteristic that inspires some people to be creative. You have to be quick to recognize that trait when an artist insists on using his particular gear. Like I said earlier, you can always massage a tone later, especially if you keep that option open to you.
As for feeling the air being pushed? Remember that one starts 'feeling' sound at 80 hz and below, something which most guitars and amps are inefficient at producing, unless we're taking about bass guitars, bass cabs and subwoofers, but these are only good up to maybe 40 hz tops.
So... are we all sufficiently chilled now? Breathe deeply, people! Your hearts, your hearts! Feel the love....
While I should be locking this thread, I hope we can get back to some semblance of sanity and try to maintain some civility. AlroyT and skunk, I hope you can edit your posts now. I will remove this paragraph once that is done.
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still spewing nonsense to the bitter end,ur posting of troll is not out of the ordinary,its parallel to all your nonsense posting here,a waste of bandwith.My job here is done for now,asta manana
So now you're making a generalization that my posts are nonsense. Information makes sense if and only if we embrace it as useful. And from person-to-person, that can be subjective. Thanks for your glorifying yourself and speaking for everyone.
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Thanks KitC for explaining the science of the fm,somehow it sank in me.Though I have to dissect every word when some people try to explain it.But in this case Kit save your energy,may nakahjandang sagot na yang kabila,naka template na ang sagot even b4 u respond.I didnt call names to this guy,I would never stoop down,he even used his family to give him the leverage he needs to curse at me.Hahaha Im literally on the floor laughing my ass out.If you KitC will ask me to apologise to him i'll do it.Will i feel really sorry?probably.I wont even ask him to apologize to me for cursing me many times,hindi ako naapektuhan,hindi ako pikon.
By the way Kit thanks naka pag burn na ako ng projects ko i just have to roll back my media player driver w/ your suggestion.
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By the way Kit thanks naka pag burn na ako ng projects ko i just have to roll back my media player driver w/ your suggestion.
Much obliged, AlroyT! I'm always here to help.
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Dodj, you like tube amps and big cabs, and we appreciate your preference for those equipment. I like a good tube amp as much as anyone else and when an amp is incapable of making me hear what I need to hear during a performance, I tend to play less inspired... (expired would be a better term in some cases). Point is, WE UNDERSTAND YOU. You would get less flames if you extend the same degree of understanding to others, and maybe even appreciate their efforts.
Thank you sir.
Now, there is no need to point out that one technology is better than the other because it's all relative. Even at times, it's all inter-related. Both digital and analog have their advantages and disadvantages. Tubes and analog may be better for some while simulations may be better in other instances. As recordists, we should put aside our preferences and try to get the best tone with what is presented to us by our clients. If we can't do it, then we give it to someone who can.
While I said before that nothing beats miking up amps, people perceived that as being anti-POD, anti-GT8, anti-whatever that doesn't require miking. All I said before was that the "experience" of tracking with real amps can affect one's inspiration. While it is true that we set aside our own preferences, I believe that my goal here is to tap into the artist's preferences, not mine. Hence the mastering thread. A lot did not like the drum sounds. I had my own interpretation of the mix which the band did not like. They chose the least punchy drums-version mix. Was that my call? It was the artist's. This is the very same procedure I do with all of my artists, but I would be honest enough to tell you that sometimes I don't like shortcuts. "Tone-chasing" for a lack of a better term. I really am not into the "preset" method of things because working with an artist requires attention to detail, which in some cases, shortcuts miss out. And normally, "shortcuts" are a product of new technology.
I am, and never was a technophobe. And you're right, new and old technology are even interrelated. And that interrelation is what confuses most people most of the time. Some people think "Wow, ang ganda pala ng tunog ng Vox AC30" and when you ask them, "saan ka nakasubok?". Ang sagot, "Sa POD!" Same thing for drum-triggering versus mixing realtime miked-up drums, and stuff like that.
The F-M curves have a direct bearing on volume. Our ears are more sensitive to frequencies from 1 to 6 khz, which is where intelligibility lies. The loudness switch or setting on some hifi systems are an attempt to compensate for the perceived loss of low and high frequencies during low volume settings. At lower volumes, we tend to hear less of the other frequencies so we often compensate by putting the familiar smiley curve on most graphic eq's, or we engage the loudness switch.
So where does the F-M curve fit in all of this? Practically, it doesn't if you are miking up a cab since what will matter is the type of mic and the position you are putting it in - a mic has no F-M curve, but it does have a frequency response curve. How about amp sims? Again, it doesn't matter since at what point in an ampsim will the F-M curves matter? Only at the monitors and to the guy listening at the mixing position.
Sir, what I was saying that the FM phenomenon is manifested well if you work with different models of amps. Unfortunately, the "produced sound" captured by the mics, preamps, whatever has nothing to do with this, only that DURING the tracking process, a guitarplayer might feel that his amp dimed to 10 inspires him to play compared to say, a PODXT patch through a monitor with 5" woofers, especially if the guy loves to play beside the amp.
So how about guitarists? Again, this is relative because sound levels decrease exponentially in proportion to the distance from the source. Not only that but there is also the approx 1 ms delay for every foot of distance one is from a cabinet. After that, there is the interplay of sound from wall and floor reflections as well as the interaction of frequencies (subtle comb filtering). By close miking a cab, you tend to capture differently from what a guitarist is hearing, or to be exact, what a guitarist perceives to be hearing. Miking techniques have been developed in an attempt to capture every possible nuance from the guitarists position but often this is impractical in most recording situations.
One major question is, are we supposed to be for ACCURATE SOUND REPRODUCTION, or PRODUCED-SOUNDS? Example. Say I had a vintage Slingerland Drum Kit. Should my goal be recording the kit as if the kit were right in front of me? 10 feet from me? Or should we tailor the individual sounds of each drum so we can make it sound like that of tunes heard in heavy metal recordings? It's all about production values, and what the producer wants.
Same thing goes for guitarists. Whenever a guitarplayer wants his amp miked, initially your goal might be to accurately reproduce the sound.. But in some cases, the engineer may need to boost a little treble post mic preamp to compensate for the mix. But that does not mean he is altering the voice of the amp. But why do I think the loudness or ground-shaking matters to the guitarplayer? Because that might be what he's accustomed to when he plays live, or at home. And I call that - motivation, which is a major ingredient in recording.
Amp sims attempt to recreate the interaction of sound waves by including cabinet simulations as well. They can also simulate mic placement as well as add room interaction. If one is really anal, add convolution to the mix by getting an impulse sample of your favorite room, mic and amp. Will it sound close? While it won't be exact, some simulations definitely come unnervingly close.
Some people claim they are accurate, some say the difference is night and day, AMPS vs. AMPSIMS that is. But what we cannot take out of the equation is that the person recording must find what inspires him the most, whether it is a POD or an amp.
About not getting the point with regards to using practice amps? Those little monsters will tend to distort earlier than larger powered amps and cabs especially when played loud. It is this characteristic that inspires some people to be creative. You have to be quick to recognize that trait when an artist insists on using his particular gear. Like I said earlier, you can always massage a tone later, especially if you keep that option open to you.
I prefer both loud and soft amps. But mind you, I still find 15W tube amps loud.
As for feeling the air being pushed? Remember that one starts 'feeling' sound at 80 hz and below, something which most guitars and amps are inefficient at producing, unless we're taking about bass guitars, bass cabs and subwoofers, but these are only good up to maybe 40 hz tops.
I wonder, it must be the ground shaking that inspires me sometimes.
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Hahaha Im literally on the floor laughing my ass out.If you KitC will ask me to apologise to him i'll do it.Will i feel really sorry?probably.I wont even ask him to apologize to me for cursing me many times,hindi ako naapektuhan,hindi ako pikon.
Hmmm. Just goes to show your intentions. Relentless. Well, you do not need Kit to tell you if you need to apologize as if he's your moral counselor or what because you yourself should know that. And when did I curse you? If you can point me at one incident where I picked on you without reason then tell me.
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guys thanks for the pms u sent,u can transfer the money to my bank account now :wink:
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hi, interesting thread.. i'm no techie, but here's my 2 cents anyway..
guitar modelers i.e pod and the likes, well, i like them..i'm not saying they are the shiat but
it is quite useful when you want to get different amp feel and tone sans the cost of buying
different amps just to get the tone you like..the point is that the thread starter is missing
is that the variety of sound you can get in a snap surely beats the crap of having to bring
a bunch of amps doing what the purists do, man, who doesn't want that earth shaking
sound you are preaching, if i can concoct a graham coxon inspired bluesy tremolo sound
on the pod, then i'm good. at least i don't have rent or buy the real thing man... BUT, definitely,
i will bring in my miked sound comfortably juxtaposed with "modeled" gtr tracks..
There are times i use both modeled and miked tracks on low gain crunch settings, frankly,
sometimes i can't hear the difference. it's just the way it is bro, technology will catch up
just like you dont need to use typewriters.
Summary? parehong may gamit yan, nasa tenga nalang yan..nsa tunog din ng gitara mo,
nasa attack mo, nasa flavor mo ma gitara..that to me is more important...
kung may tenga ka, may tenga ka..=) cheers
-Terence
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guys thanks for the pms u sent,u can transfer the money to my bank account now :wink:
:-o ba't ikaw lang? <just kidding> :lol: :lol: :lol:
Nice post, Terence.
In the interest of garnering more opinions, I will keep this thread open. Knowledge, if used wisely, can be a beautiful thing.
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thanks kitC , i think i'll be passing by this part of this forum more often, ayoko na sa classifieds, gastric, hehehe
its nice to see people so passionate about their craft, pero peace lang tayo... masaya panoorin mga flamers hahaha
pero chill muna tayo hehehe
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i did try to address the fletcher-munson effect and why amps sound different than pods (and how this can be circumvented by an experienced engineer) but no one was paying attention. maybe trolling was the better option :evil:
seriously though, want the fletcher munson effect out the window? lower your volume, twist that knob.
ibang kwento na pag gig dahil kailangan talaga malakas ang mga amps. recording wise, we hardly playback at ungodly levels naman so what's the point?
what im saying is hindi naman malaking problema talaga ang fletcher munson effect when a/b'ing between amp simps and real amps.
again, for the record, the only amp sim i seemed to like was the POD XT. it was definitely more convincing than its software counterparts.
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again, for the record, the only amp sim i seemed to like was the POD XT. it was definitely more convincing than its software counterparts.
I have no idea if the POD XT and POD XT Pro produce the same results as far as emulations are concerned. Having tried Shinji's PODXT Pro, I was quite convinced that Line 6 DID improve alot since the time I was even gassing for their first bean POD. What really held me back from buying the POD were the soundclips from the Line 6 site! But that was some 6-7 years ago.
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There was this time when my band walked into a studio for pre prod stuff and we were surrounded with tube amps,well fine and dandy until its was my time to record.Our music then was very heavy so I was leaning towards a hi-gain kinda vibe but the problem was none of the Randall,marshall,or even a soldano slo couldt get the job done.We were lookin for a particular kinda sound.I asked the sound guy if I could try the mesa triple rectifier,he told me I could but the amp needs re-tubing so that was no longer an option.
Lo and behold he pulled out the first generation POD(this was back in '99 i think)and made me try the california setting w/c was the dual recto mode.I was totally floored with that unit,none of the tube amps that time met my expectation.And yes I was wailing away at 128db(exaggerating)in front of my monitors blowing wind on my face like it was the real mcoy.
My point?who gives a rats ass(pardon my french) for the FM curve @ that time?Nope not me.The POD has become a staple equipment in any professional recording environment,if u dont have one, then get into the freakin program napag iiwanan ka na :roll:.If a client needs a vox tone do u have the ac-30?What if there's only 3 amps in yer arsenal,that means I only have 3 choices.
Hey if the POD is good enough for Satch,its good enough for me, or Adrian Belew,kirk hammet,steve morse or even Jepoy.Geez line 6 should be paying me for this.
I dont like the PODxt live tho
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Does it have to be A POD? A lot of other equipment can surely beat a POD, at least what most experienced users say. But I do agree that the POD has been a "household name" hence the familiarity of most musicians.
Line 6 owns us all in the marketing department.
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dude its not a marketing hype,if the product is good it will sell itself.I know the other products yer talkin about and i tend to disagree.Sometime in the future a product WILL outshine the POD but right now let Line 6 bask under the glory.
Experienced users?They use the POD,its on print.
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I am looking forward to the Spider Valve. I think that doesn't require me to get a POD. It has DI capabilities too. No problem with miking. The Pocket POD seems appealing though because of the price.
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Line 6 owns us all in the marketing department.
By your same reasoning, so does Fender... and Gibson, and Ibanez, and Roland, and Yamaha, and Korg, and Shure, and Bogner, and Randall, and DiMarzio, and Microsoft, and Apple, and Coca Cola... and every freakin' branded product that we've ever bought and will continue to buy. Companies live or die by their marketing. If we didn't want to be owned by them, we might as well DIY our own stuff.
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I am looking forward to the Spider Valve.
now we are on the same boat,Im waiting for my friend from GC to buzz me up when the spider valve arrives,I'll let u know if it was worth the wait,if u want.
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By your same reasoning, so does Fender... and Gibson, and Ibanez, and Roland, and Yamaha, and Korg, and Shure, and Bogner, and Randall, and DiMarzio, and Microsoft, and Apple, and Coca Cola... and every freakin' branded product that we've ever bought and will continue to buy. Companies live or die by their marketing. If we didn't want to be owned by them, we might as well DIY our own stuff.
If only im as smart as u guys i'll DIY everything.The ony DIY i can do is tune my guitar w/o a tuner.The rest,fuhhgedabahdit
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The POD has become a staple equipment in any professional recording environment,if u dont have one, then get into the freakin program napag iiwanan ka na :roll:.
Hmm... much like how Pro-Tools and digital recording (in general) was criticized in its early years. Now, most studios can't live without it or something with similar functions.
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Hmm... much like how Pro-Tools and digital recording (in general) was criticized in its early years. Now, most studios can't live without it or something with similar functions.
yeah i remember dat/adat users dissing off the early PT.
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yeah i remember dat/adat users dissing off the early PT.
oo pards! ganyang katanda ka ng recording artist... oops sorry nadulas hehehe
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oo pards! ganyang katanda ka ng recording artist... oops sorry nadulas hehehe
tado ka talaga Jep,mas matanda ka pa sakin noh,anyway last bisita ko sa pinas 2 yrs ago may nakita pa ako adat sa abs-cbn studio.
ps i think mag sing edad lang tyo jep,ilan taon ka na ba,aminin
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hahaha 16 lang ako noh! di ba boss kit? :D
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hahaha 16 lang ako noh! di ba boss kit? :D
16?ang baba pala ng palit ngayon ng $ jan :-D
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hahaha 16 lang ako noh! di ba boss kit? :D
Noon yun... Nung 20:1 ang dollar. :lol:
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OT KitC may nagbigay sa akin ng Lexicon omega interface ok ba yun?USB sya at 4 inputs.Balak ko bumili ng ibang interface kaso eto libre nga,if its up ur par i'll use it kung hndi papadala ko nalang sa utol ko jan sa pinas.I need ur opinion.
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buti nga tumataas na naman ang dollars 46.8 na! hirap pag abroad ang client... dollars ang bayad eh pag tumaas ang piso kawawa kita ko :(
ayyy OT na pala... sowee hehehe
back to topic:
mura na ba yung POD na nasa classifieds? waaaaaaaaaaa GAS na naman
OT pa rin pala :D
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OT KitC may nagbigay sa akin ng Lexicon omega interface ok ba yun?USB sya at 4 inputs.Balak ko bumili ng ibang interface kaso eto libre nga,if its up ur par i'll use it kung hndi papadala ko nalang sa utol ko jan sa pinas.I need ur opinion.
It's USB 1.1 and it has great preamps from what I've read, but since it IS usb 1.1, you'll be lucky to use all 4 inputs simultaneously... UNLESS it has hardware direct monitoring a la Tascam US-224 afaik.
Back to regular programming! (sorry I can't get online... work mode :| )
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It's USB 1.1 and it has great preamps from what I've read, but since it IS usb 1.1, you'll be lucky to use all 4 inputs simultaneously... UNLESS it has hardware direct monitoring a la Tascam US-224 afaik.
Back to regular programming! (sorry I can't get online... work mode :| )
Its off to the balikbayan box then,Thanks Kit
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Hmm... much like how Pro-Tools and digital recording (in general) was criticized in its early years. Now, most studios can't live without it or something with similar functions.
And in the same light, some pros in Japan and Europe say Nuendo and Logic Pro can slay Protools, only that Protools was the most intuitive digital recording platform, which was easy from old farts to embrace when switching from analog to digital. Nuendo and Logic Pro on the other hand, was kind of intimidating for most beginners in digital recordin I can quote Phil O Keefe, writer for Music tech mag, "Protools is the Microsoft of recording".
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mura na ba yung POD na nasa classifieds? waaaaaaaaaaa GAS na naman
OT pa rin pala :D
Minsan iniisip ko, is 2nd hand market value an indicator of how excellent a product is? Something I noticed about everything DIGITAL is that they are like cellphones. They depreciate so quickly. My first Lexicon Core2 interface cost me $500 and it had 4 friggin inputs and I couldn't use lightpipe options because there were no preamps that had those features then (at least that was what I noticed). Dang! Now you can get 8-input systems for much cheap. I remember the days of the Echo cards when they were so expensive, and Midiman (now M-Audio) were virtually unknown in the digital recording field except for midi and keyboard interfaces. Now if you look everywhere, you have option overload. And the sad thing is, maybe 2 years from now your most-prized Firewire interface will have already sunken 3x its value.
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By your same reasoning, so does Fender... and Gibson, and Ibanez, and Roland, and Yamaha, and Korg, and Shure, and Bogner, and Randall, and DiMarzio, and Microsoft, and Apple, and Coca Cola... and every freakin' branded product that we've ever bought and will continue to buy. Companies live or die by their marketing. If we didn't want to be owned by them, we might as well DIY our own stuff.
Sir, Marketing is good. In fact I think OVERMARKETING is the best way to gain appeal from a large group of people. But how many good products out there are sleepers simply because the manufacturers cannot afford an endorser, or pay millions for ads? Most of them end up in obscurity. They cannot manufacture more units because they don't have the machinery to sell to more people.
The way I look at it, Line 6 benefits from great marketing strategies. I just saw the ad for a POD saying "a lot of Grammy-winning albums have been recorded on a POD.." IMO, that is supposed to be common knowledge, because I never saw Fender, Marshall, Mesa Boogie, or even Shure use such a tagline as a marketing buzz.
Sorry for the OT btw.
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Practically ANYTHING electronic depreciates to 50% of it's value as soon as you buy it. This is the way the market generally perceives it. More commonly, though, this is attributable to mass production items, and there is Moore's Law which sort of implies that anything electronic put out today will be obsolete in 18 months time. Add the fact that China is flooding the world with super cheap electronic gadgets and items that the entire market is in a glut of everything electronic which retains no value in a shorter time it takes for me to write this reply.
There are, and can be, a few exceptions. Vintage RCA, Shure and Neumann mics for one. Those much valued NOS tubes by RCA, Telefunken, Mullard... But let's face it, much of our technology has PLANNED OBSOLESCENCE. Take computer technology... the introduction of a new socket already places your existing rig in jeopardy. Newer and faster processors appear within 6 months of you buying a completely new setup. Someone will always invent or innovate technology into something smaller, faster, and with more features. That is the nature of things until someone owns up and admits they've got aliens in their employ.
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The way I look at it, Line 6 benefits from great marketing strategies. I just saw the ad for a POD saying "a lot of Grammy-winning albums have been recorded on a POD.." IMO, that is supposed to be common knowledge, because I never saw Fender, Marshall, Mesa Boogie, or even Shure use such a tagline as a marketing buzz.
Don't be so naive, skunk. At one time, they all probably did; Shure and Fender especially. Artist endorsements are another form of marketing buzz. Line6 is not alone with this. Your bias is, unfortunately, beginning to show.
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Don't be so naive, skunk. At one time, they all probably did; Shure and Fender especially. Artist endorsements are another form of marketing buzz. Line6 is not alone with this. Your bias is, unfortunately, beginning to show.
Admittedly, I am still quite biased towards Line 6. But not as bad as some 5 years ago. I even looked at some oscilloscope signals posted on the net to see how the old Bean PODs performed against real miked up amps.
Since you mentioned Shure, how many people use an Audix i5 over an SM57 for snare drums and guitar speakers? I've heard from some experienced people that the i5 has a better tailored response than an SM57. Only that, the SM57 is the industry standard in those applications. If I were engineering for some producer, I would bet they would point me at the 57 first because had I offered him an i5, there would be more explaining needed (hence more studio time wasted).
I hope my point gets across, but when something new AND GREAT comes out, the first problem is toppling a trend. Line 6 was able to do that because I've seen, read, and *laughed at* their very old ads way back some 6 years ago. My ears didn't tell me the soundclips sound right. As an example, a friend of mine and a beloved luthier, gets a lot of ridiculous comments regarding Line 6. Some client of his says, "Ang ganda ng AC30 pala!....Nasubukan ko kasi sa POD." Whereas Arie, says, "I've tried a Vox AC30 reissue with Blue Alnico Speakers myself yet I cannot even claim it sounds like an original Vox." Do you think Line 6 marketing did not have something to do with that? Of course it did. I saw how "brave" they were at making a lot of ridiculous tag lines to sell their products. It almost made noobs think that owning a modeller is like owning a multitude of amps, for much less.
Anyway, what I've learned, at least, is that if people are happy with their tone, no matter how "sucky" it is for the engineer, tapos na ang usapan.
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I remember reading an EM review of the Line6 from way back. The general consensus was that there were a few models that nailed the tone while some were a bit off. Line6, of course, will not mention that in their ads. What they will say is that their product/s will model every conceivable amp and cabinet there is. Then, there is the convenience factor of carrying an amp modeler, which is undeniable, compared to lugging around a truckload of amps and cabs.
The thing with any marketing strategy is that one mentions his strengths while conveniently sidelining their flaws. Kind of like physical modeling in keyboards where they try to convince you their string model can accurately model a string being plucked or bowed. But I didn't get my Prophecy because I wanted to hear a model of a cello string being bowed by modelled horsehairs; I got it because it had sounds that inspired me (plus the fact that I always wanted that cool looking silver-colored synth with a ribbon on a modulation 'log'). Sure, Korg would put out ads saying that the string/brass/wind models were accurate, but I tested and heard each and every preset to see if there was something I could coax out of that little keyboard; and there was.
Sure a lot of kids now don't probably know what a real AC30 sounds like. Much in the same vein that they don't know what vinyl or even tape sounds like. It's like how much this generation loves to listen on their mp3 players when those of us in the know are aware of how much information is missing in that mp3 file. The same was said, however, when recording made the transition from vinyl to tape (and maybe also from wax/shellac to vinyl). There will always be holdouts to the old technology, forever griping about how good it was back then. And there will be others pushing the boundaries, trying to find new avenues and technologies for their creative expression. To paraphrase a common cliche' then: "Think outside the (Line6) box."
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To paraphrase a common cliche' then: "Think outside the (Line6) box."
Uhhh...
1. Recording Studios start becoming obsolete because Juan delaCruz can set up his own studio at home with a PC and cheap plugins.
2. People download mp3s hence the CD format will start to die. And people don't care about the subtle flutter in the treble for low bitrate mp3s. Hence lowering the bar for fidelity issues in the recording process.
Damn ano ba itong napasok kong trabaho??? :cry:
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Uhhh...
1. Recording Studios start becoming obsolete because Juan delaCruz can set up his own studio at home with a PC and cheap plugins.
That's why it's up to us, who supposedly know better, to help them. Like I said, think outside the box.
2. People download mp3s hence the CD format will start to die. And people don't care about the subtle flutter in the treble for low bitrate mp3s. Hence lowering the bar for fidelity issues in the recording process.
MP3s are like the ubiquitous cassettes of the day. Audiophiles started clamoring for better fidelity so they came up with chromium tapes and soon after that, metal. Digital is marching forward with 1-bit sampling (DSD) and DVD-audio, and other (maybe better) compression codecs that retain a lot more information. Go with the flow if you want to survive, but retain the best of the past if you want to be innovative.
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Admittedly, I am still quite biased towards Line 6. But not as bad as some 5 years ago. I even looked at some oscilloscope signals posted on the net to see how the old Bean PODs performed against real miked up amps.
Since you mentioned Shure, how many people use an Audix i5 over an SM57 for snare drums and guitar speakers? I've heard from some experienced people that the i5 has a better tailored response than an SM57. Only that, the SM57 is the industry standard in those applications. If I were engineering for some producer, I would bet they would point me at the 57 first because had I offered him an i5, there would be more explaining needed (hence more studio time wasted).
Better is subjective,have u considered the fact that sm57's acid test does not only comprise on how good it sounds?I was a roadie for a band eons ago and i can assure you those buggers are the sturdiest mics ive ever seen.You can douse a liter of vodka and theyd still be running.You drop them on the floor and you can barely hear a thump,now thats quiet handling for u.Bands like U2,van Halen and other bands thats been on the road forever rely their lives on these.Thats why their #1,its not marketing.
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I hope my point gets across, but when something new AND GREAT comes out, the first problem is toppling a trend. Line 6 was able to do that because I've seen, read, and *laughed at* their very old ads way back some 6 years ago. My ears didn't tell me the soundclips sound right. As an example, a friend of mine and a beloved luthier, gets a lot of ridiculous comments regarding Line 6. Some client of his says, "Ang ganda ng AC30 pala!....Nasubukan ko kasi sa POD." Whereas Arie, says, "I've tried a Vox AC30 reissue with Blue Alnico Speakers myself yet I cannot even claim it sounds like an original Vox." Do you think Line 6 marketing did not have something to do with that? Of course it did. I saw how "brave" they were at making a lot of ridiculous tag lines to sell their products. It almost made noobs think that owning a modeller is like owning a multitude of amps, for much less.
Anyway, what I've learned, at least, is that if people are happy with their tone, no matter how "sucky" it is for the engineer, tapos na ang usapan.
Well the fact na natuwa yung client ni Arie sa ganda ng tunog that means the product has done its job,whether the guy has no idea what a real ac30 sounds like.You match an amp's tone against a POD using an oscilliscope?What the hell for?You think all tube amps sound great?Yung ginamit ba na amp sa test ay yung tweed amp ni EC?That's a biased test right from the start.You can use a stethoscope or a microscope and be OC about it but at the end of the day its yer freakin EAR whos gonna decide if you'll take that lithium pill thats been staring at you all day(figure of speech ok,relax).
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Better is subjective,have u considered the fact that sm57's acid test does not only comprise on how good it sounds?I was a roadie for a band eons ago and i can assure you those buggers are the sturdiest mics ive ever seen.You can douse a liter of vodka and theyd still be running.You drop them on the floor and you can barely hear a thump,now thats quiet handling for u.Bands like U2,van Halen and other bands thats been on the road forever rely their lives on these.Thats why their #1,its not marketing.
Man I have nothing against the 57. It is a workhorse and as I said I am not surprised that it is the industry standard. But what I am saying is, don't we think there is something BETTER than the 57 that we fail to look at because mic company X has no ability to market their products even if they made a mic BETTER and sturdier than the SM57? It is pretty similar how Michael V's TV commercials helped out Joy Dishwashing liquid outsell Axion Dishwashing Paste. (Pardon if you don't see this on US TV but you get the point.)
The funny thing about mics though... they always use these classic mics as benchmarks to describe the performance. "It's a U87 with more top end." "It's like an SM57 with more lower mids." It's one way of marketing the competition unknowingly.
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Well the fact na natuwa yung client ni Arie sa ganda ng tunog that means the product has done its job,whether the guy has no idea what a real ac30 sounds like.You match an amp's tone against a POD using an oscilliscope?What the hell for?You think all tube amps sound great?Yung ginamit ba na amp sa test ay yung tweed amp ni EC?That's a biased test right from the start.You can use a stethoscope or a microscope and be OC about it but at the end of the day its yer freakin EAR whos gonna decide if you'll take that lithium pill thats been staring at you all day(figure of speech ok,relax).
I used my ears right from the start bro. The soundclips from the official site way back was what held me back from liking the POD. A lot of users post their POD recordings. Not impressed.
But the lesson learned here (from a studio engineer's perspective) is that you cannot stop anyone from liking something that you hate because it is all a matter of taste and personal satisfaction. But whenever I do recordings, I never fail to give the artists more options that they never thought of. It is them who decides, not me.
Anyway, regarding the AC30 analogy, my whole point in saying so is that some marketing methods can impair proper judgment in many of us. We're all guilty of that to some extent. How come parents treat their children to fastfood when in fact they are supposed to steer them away from unhealthy food? My son always dances to Jollibee ads, and I admit that I do love some of the food in their menu, but we should always keep in mind to let them eat the right food... vegetables, fish and fresh meat.
In other words, I am not here to be pro-POD, or anti-POD. I am here to tell clients to know their differences and use what inspires them the most.
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Man I have nothing against the 57. It is a workhorse and as I said I am not surprised that it is the industry standard. But what I am saying is, don't we think there is something BETTER than the 57 that we fail to look at because mic company X has no ability to market their products even if they made a mic BETTER and sturdier than the SM57? It is pretty similar how Michael V's TV commercials helped out Joy Dishwashing liquid outsell Axion Dishwashing Paste. (Pardon if you don't see this on US TV but you get the point.)
The funny thing about mics though... they always use these classic mics as benchmarks to describe the performance. "It's a U87 with more top end." "It's like an SM57 with more lower mids." It's one way of marketing the competition unknowingly.
skunk i get your point,but my thing is if i'm a struggling musician sympre mag research muna ako kung ano talagang equipments out there na tatagal sa akin.ergo mag tatanung ako sa capwa ko musician and of course a more experienced musician who's been out there would recommend something thats been tried and tested like the sm57.If i have $50 out for a mic would I dare to experiment?Id buy a used 57 and have enuff change for a happy meal.Thats micro marketing for Shure.
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Ganyang-ganyan ang pakiramdam ko pag nakakakita ako ng magandang babae sa tv o pelikula. She can do a whole lot better than the man she's with...di lang nya ako kilala. :-D
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nice read, astig ng mga opinions na binibigay ng lahat...
if i may add.. as an ordinary working class musician who doesn't know much
about the techie stuff, all i have to rely on when going inside the studio, syempre, my feel for the tone presented to me.. When i was recording for an album way back 97, i had a dual rectifier, twin reverb and a small marshal tube amp to play with... listening to the tracks i recorded, well, maybe because i wasn't that experienced at that time (not that i am that good now) i know i could have done better. i don't know much about amps as well but when i crank up my early U2 playlist, i listen to the edge's tale of vox amps and trusty old strats and stuff.. am i damned because i haven't tried the real thing? i don't think so... so when i whip up an edge inspired setting on the pod, badtrip ba ako dahil di naman nya kuha yung totoong tunog? no, coz i know it's something i can tweak and make for my own... a good friend shinji tanaka, a well respected engineer and philmusic member whose studio is fast becoming the go to place to record your next platinum album, has a trusty ole pod.. when i first used the pod, sabi ko, langya, tiwala naman masyado sila dito, pero shinji related to me even raims of sandwich had trouble distinguishing miked tracks and the pod tracks, then ako rin..ayun..
case in point? Ok ang POd..well at least para sakin, so yung original poster, i can advise na ok kumuha ng POD, lekat na wla bang country represenatative ang pod dito dapat mag painum na yan..hehehe
To me, whether u use pod or miked tube amps, it all depends on how it will fit well in the total mix..minsan kahit basura ang tunog pero tama ang pagka layer, or it hit a freaking nerve that goes well with the overall tracks, i mean everything on the mix, ok lang. i can cite examples from my own recording pero WAG na dahil baka pagtawanan lang ako ng mga maestro dito..
my point is, and i don't know if im stil in the right path or topic of discussion is that dapat wholisitic ang approach mo sa pag kuha ng tone, whether u freaking DI it, mic it, POD it, it should be done in a way it will collide with other tracks as well.. this way, we won't be missing the forest coz we are to busy examining the trees...
sorry if i strayed away from the topic of discussion. moderators please punish me with a case of san mig lite and a platter of mani.. =)
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Great post. :-D
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You're too modest, Terence.
@microchimp - tukayo! pang Anything Goes ang post mo ah. hehe
I used my ears right from the start bro. The soundclips from the official site way back was what held me back from liking the POD. A lot of users post their POD recordings. Not impressed.
The thing is, there are users... and then there are USERS. It's a sad fact that not many can fully utilize gear to their best extent, or maybe even some bedroom recordists just try to capture their music with a pod and a 'blaster, and just post it to be happy. You're putting things too much under the microscope and not sharing with another person's joy in his music, kinda like not seeing the forest because of the trees.
Another thing, you developed a bias to the pod by listening to soundclips posted what? 5 years ago? Imagine the resolution on those files way back then just so you can download them.
But the lesson learned here (from a studio engineer's perspective) is that you cannot stop anyone from liking something that you hate because it is all a matter of taste and personal satisfaction. But whenever I do recordings, I never fail to give the artists more options that they never thought of. It is them who decides, not me.
Unless you can start being objective about a person's gear, you will never be able to mix his music properly because it's really all about the music and nothing less. If a client comes in with a pod or some other ampsim, and delivers a downright fiery performance, will you be able to step up to the plate and mix it well? Regardless of your preferences? Think wisely, Dodj. (OTOH, I will admit to a certain deference with polka... if a client comes in with a smashing polka composition, I'll refer him to jepoy or marvinq right away! :lol: Polka is my kryptonite. :-( )
Anyway, regarding the AC30 analogy, my whole point in saying so is that some marketing methods can impair proper judgment in many of us.
You can't blame Line6 for their marketing. They did come up with a product that has lasted through the years, but it wasn't easy to begin with. They took their Axyss and Flextone technology and packaged it in a neat case. If it were crap, I doubt it would have lasted any longer than it has. As for impaired judgement, that's kinda striking a low blow to the people who use a particular product. Like if I decide to use Colgate because I see it on tv often, does that impair my judgement?
But still, it's always a case of caveat emptor, let the buyer beware. The buyers will decide if an ampsim is worth it and time will tell if a product is worthy of being a hit. As for now, though, it seems the PODs are. (look on the bright side, at least it doesn't explode or catch fire like some cellphones and laptops, though I have a nagging feeling that you wish it did)
Peace!
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It's a sad fact that not many can fully utilize gear to their best extent, or maybe even some bedroom recordists just try to capture their music with a pod and a 'blaster, and just post it to be happy.
What the.... hey, I'm one of those! Now I'm sad... :cry:
:-D :-D :-D :-D :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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What the.... hey, I'm one of those! Now I'm sad... :cry:
:-D :-D :-D :-D :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Haha! I heard your work, Al! (from the good ol' yupank jam days) No need to be sad. You should read about that EM article where someone just used Garageband for an EP. Talk about bittersweet! But that EP sure has piqued my interest.
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Haha! I heard your work, Al! (from the good ol' yupank jam days) No need to be sad. You should read about that EM article where someone just used Garageband for an EP. Talk about bittersweet! But that EP sure has piqued my interest.
ok naman garageband ah. so much easier to use than logic. haha. it's kinda depressin how i can't even figure out to create a VI in logic. but then again i better read the manual.
:-) :-) :-)
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Wait wait,I have garageband in my iBook together w/ that digitizer input thingy.Can I use that in conjuction w/ FL7 XXL?Can I squeeze out any potential w/ that software?.KitC?Anyone?I really haven't explored it.
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re dodjies post about mp3 and data loss:
technology is bound to get better. basta maganda ang pagkakarecord ng track maganda parin lalabas kahit dumaan sa data compression. ang mga tracks na apektado masyado ng data compression yung nirecord using lossy formats. based on experience, tracks i recorded on the vs840 kinda sucked when moved into the mp3 realm. but with 24/88.2 khz project rates, hindi na masyadong issue yon. pansin ko pa nga sa commercial releases, mas maganda pa ang tunog kahit mp3 compared to some of my old WAV files :lol:
re the pod xt:
skunk, diba nag a/b ka kay shinji? the randall vs. the POD XT. you may post the raw soundclips (sans processing) to drive home your point.
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The funny thing about mics though... they always use these classic mics as benchmarks to describe the performance. "It's a U87 with more top end." "It's like an SM57 with more lower mids." It's one way of marketing the competition unknowingly.
Clients such as Big Record Label or TV Stations just looks for a U87 in a studio. Why? because of the name only nothing more nothing less! They dont care if you can produce the sounds they want even without a U87 they just want a studio with a U87. Even ask Shinji or any Studio owner with a U87
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re the pod xt:
skunk, diba nag a/b ka kay shinji? the randall vs. the POD XT. you may post the raw soundclips (sans processing) to drive home your point.
I have been thinking about posting the mp3 with the pod and amp tracks panned hard left and right. But there are some flaws in the test. We used the wrong amp model for the PODXT. At first I really wanted the Plexi patch on but at first glance, it appeared that the JCM800 model sounded closer to the Randall's Plexi Module. So now there are compression issues in the sound (I mean, those nuances that you hear when the guitar's volume is rolled back and forth).
Shinji was right... to get a REAL A/B test, you must get the real amp and the POD to sound the same right from the start, and the amp models and the cabs must be similar. And then, the mic modelling on the pod should also match the mic setup of the amp. And admittedly, Shinji EQ's the signal coming from the amp mics before they hit the disks to compensate for proximity effect. Maybe we just needed more time. Alex said he can provide maybe a good number of amps for A/B on December 30.
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re dodjies post about mp3 and data loss:
technology is bound to get better. basta maganda ang pagkakarecord ng track maganda parin lalabas kahit dumaan sa data compression. ang mga tracks na apektado masyado ng data compression yung nirecord using lossy formats. based on experience, tracks i recorded on the vs840 kinda sucked when moved into the mp3 realm. but with 24/88.2 khz project rates, hindi na masyadong issue yon. pansin ko pa nga sa commercial releases, mas maganda pa ang tunog kahit mp3 compared to some of my old WAV files :lol:
it's been a habit of mine to actually compress to mp3 to hear how it converts. wish someone would come up with a free plugin in vst form to emulate mp3 compression. that'd be sweet.
:-) :-) :-)
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Clients such as Big Record Label or TV Stations just looks for a U87 in a studio. Why? because of the name only nothing more nothing less! They dont care if you can produce the sounds they want even without a U87 they just want a studio with a U87. Even ask Shinji or any Studio owner with a U87
Yes and I agree to that. This is nothing more than the name game. The thing is, it would be nice to have a U87, 414, C12, U47, TLM103, R121 and all those classic mics in your mic cabinet, and in addition have other alternative mics (both known and unknown) for more variety. But I'm pretty sure those mics I mentioned can really make a buzz for the studio. And in that case, a studio owner has to spend like another P1M for those mics... :cry:
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from memory, i liked the pod xt clips more than the randall clips rightout of the box ... which isn't to say the randall recording sucked. it just needed to be processed to have a figting chance. it took a long time for you guys to set up the amp, mic the amp, etc ... but only a couple of minutes to plug into the POD and dial in a setting and the outcome still veered in favor of the POD. in fairness though, i think the randall would have sounded A LOT better given more setup time. but given more setup time with the POD too, will there be a night and day difference between the two? i heard your amp inside the tracking room and you kinda gave the the thumbs up to jepoy re the mic position, which made us assume you were getting a more or less a faithful if not pleasant sound from the amp. yet the results favored the POD.
we could go on and on about the fletcher munson curve and how much it fools people into thinking an amp and an amp sim sounds alike ... but in that particular situation the amp sim kikcked the amp's butt. this is not to say that the amp wont kick the amp sim's butt some other time ... say december 30 ...
my point is maybe Line 6 has the right to sell their product the way they do. afterall, the POD did deliver good results for all to see during that particular a/b test.
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it's been a habit of mine to actually compress to mp3 to hear how it converts. wish someone would come up with a free plugin in vst form to emulate mp3 compression. that'd be sweet.
:-) :-) :-)
hey that's a great idea!
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Shinji was right... to get a REAL A/B test, you must get the real amp and the POD to sound the same right from the start, and the amp models and the cabs must be similar. And then, the mic modelling on the pod should also match the mic setup of the amp.
dapat naman talaga ganon e. bakit mo dinala yang pagkabigat bigat mong amp sa studio kung hindi mo naisip tong mga bagay na to beforehand? you brought that amp to a/b right? sana niresearch mo na din kung anong gagamitin mong preset sa POD since you were so keen on proving your point.
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it's been a habit of mine to actually compress to mp3 to hear how it converts. wish someone would come up with a free plugin in vst form to emulate mp3 compression. that'd be sweet.
:-) :-) :-)
hintayin ko rin yun! hehe
15 pages more... :D
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we could go on and on about the fletcher munson curve and how much it fools people into thinking an amp and an amp sim sounds alike ... but in that particular situation the amp sim kikcked the amp's butt. t
Hazel I was listening to the tracks again and again, and the PODXT track did not respond to the guitar well. I was rolling off the volume to see how the sound cleaned up. The PODXT sounded flat while the Randall cleaned up just like how a tube amp does. And yes you're right, the miked up tracks need a little EQing because of proximity issues, and we do that either in the mixing or tracking stage where the engineer cuts a little lows so the mids become more defined.
Now here are my observations on that A/B test, which I deem as flawed.
1. The amp sim on the PODXT did NOT produce the same timbre produced by the Randall Plexi Module.
2. The amp sim on the PODXT did NOT produce the same preamp compression produced by the Randall Plexi Module.
3. There was no backing track to see how well the track sits on the mix.
4. We cannot make a good judgment on either amp or ampsim primarily because the guitar used was rather... muddy? I wonder but that guitar didn't have much sparkle, or rather "bingi" yung highs.
5. From a producer's standpoint, we cannot say one is better over the other unless we had a particular tone in mind for the project. And rightly so, this is not to say the POD kicked the Randall's butt or otherwise.
But then again, this is the confusion that I have always been talking about. Just because one cannot capture the tone of an amp in a studio and thus get more decent results with a POD, a lot of people claim the POD kicks <put amp model and brand here>'s ass. You see?
It is just like saying "BFD kicks a Yamaha Maple Custom's ass" when the engineer cannot capture the tone of the Yamaha the way a BFD drum kit sounds. Maybe, the better way to say that is "BFD is a better option when there is limited time in the studio, and there are lesser chances of failure if BFD and an electronic kit can deliver the goods instantly, whereas miking a drum kit like a Yamaha Maple Custom where the room ambience, mics, head choices, and tuning necessitates more setup time, thus being more prone to failure."
It's all engineer vs. artist perspective. The way I see it, a lot of artists are missing out on the fun of tone-chasing if we take these shortcuts. And that is their major clamor. They do not feel as "involved" in the recording when there are shortcuts. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying SHORTCUTS ARE WRONG. What I am saying is, IT IS WRONG TO TAKE SHORTCUTS IF THE ARTIST WANTS TO TAKE THE SCENIC ROUTE.
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dapat naman talaga ganon e. bakit mo dinala yang pagkabigat bigat mong amp sa studio kung hindi mo naisip tong mga bagay na to beforehand? you brought that amp to a/b right?
Hazel, the main problem in the A/B test was we were fooled by initial reactions. We did not have the right amount of time to get the settings right. And I would say that the test is not valid unless we get both amp and POD to sound alike.
sana niresearch mo na din kung anong gagamitin mong preset sa POD since you were so keen on proving your point.
Shinji showed me the manual for the PODXT. For the test I was choosing among these models : 50 Watt Plexi , Plexi 100, Plexi VARIAC (some EVH tone here), and the JCM800. For some reason all the tones except the JCM800 had weak tone. They were not responding to the differences in strumming, loud or soft, single notes, blah blah blah. We felt that we needed something more compressed as the miked amp had a nice combination of compression and openness. It is the phenomenon where you can hear the notes blooming when you have the guitar's volume in full, and cleans up when rolled down. You see Carlos Santana doing this often. Anyway, the need to use a higher-gain MArshall amp sim sounded "better" at first glance, but after hearing those tracks again, I thought I could have just used the other models and not the JCM800.
Yes I do my research, but sometimes ears can fool you.
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Hmmm, interesting. Dami ko natutunan dito a.
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Hazel I was listening to the tracks again and again, and the PODXT track did not respond to the guitar well. I was rolling off the volume to see how the sound cleaned up. The PODXT sounded flat while the Randall cleaned up just like how a tube amp does. And yes you're right, the miked up tracks need a little EQing because of proximity issues, and we do that either in the mixing or tracking stage where the engineer cuts a little lows so the mids become more defined.
Now here are my observations on that A/B test, which I deem as flawed.
1. The amp sim on the PODXT did NOT produce the same timbre produced by the Randall Plexi Module.
2. The amp sim on the PODXT did NOT produce the same preamp compression produced by the Randall Plexi Module.
3. There was no backing track to see how well the track sits on the mix.
4. We cannot make a good judgment on either amp or ampsim primarily because the guitar used was rather... muddy? I wonder but that guitar didn't have much sparkle, or rather "bingi" yung highs.
5. From a producer's standpoint, we cannot say one is better over the other unless we had a particular tone in mind for the project. And rightly so, this is not to say the POD kicked the Randall's butt or otherwise.
But then again, this is the confusion that I have always been talking about. Just because one cannot capture the tone of an amp in a studio and thus get more decent results with a POD, a lot of people claim the POD kicks <put amp model and brand here>'s ass. You see?
It is just like saying "BFD kicks a Yamaha Maple Custom's ass" when the engineer cannot capture the tone of the Yamaha the way a BFD drum kit sounds. Maybe, the better way to say that is "BFD is a better option when there is limited time in the studio, and there are lesser chances of failure if BFD and an electronic kit can deliver the goods instantly, whereas miking a drum kit like a Yamaha Maple Custom where the room ambience, mics, head choices, and tuning necessitates more setup time, thus being more prone to failure."
It's all engineer vs. artist perspective. The way I see it, a lot of artists are missing out on the fun of tone-chasing if we take these shortcuts. And that is their major clamor. They do not feel as "involved" in the recording when there are shortcuts. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying SHORTCUTS ARE WRONG. What I am saying is, IT IS WRONG TO TAKE SHORTCUTS IF THE ARTIST WANTS TO TAKE THE SCENIC ROUTE.
yun nga sabi ko diba, it has to be in the context of a song. ikaw na din nagsabi sa orig post mo dito, add some reverb to a pod track and the difference goes out the window ... or something to that effect. tone chasing? e kung maganda na nga yung tone na galing sa POD, ibig sabihin nahuli na... bat kailangan pang habulin? ang issue dito, we use whatever works. kung ako ang tatanongin i have not been so lucky as some with amp sims (and i am envious of those who have made amp sims work for them). i still use amps to get the guitar distortion i like. this is what works for me at the moment.
the fletcher munson effect is really not that much of a big deal when it comes to a/b'ing amps and amp sims. malaki ang epekto ng fletcher munson sa gigging musicians. pero kung satin at atin lang, kayang kaya nating ibaba ang volume knob. siguro kung may issue man dito, yung kung pano natin ima-mic yung amp para faithful yung tunog nito sa tracking room dun sa nacacapture natin on tape. sa tingin ko don malaki epekto ng fletcher munson because of the way we are exposed to extremely loud guitars in the tracking room.
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Wait wait,I have garageband in my iBook together w/ that digitizer input thingy.Can I use that in conjuction w/ FL7 XXL?Can I squeeze out any potential w/ that software?.KitC?Anyone?I really haven't explored it.
I don't have a Mac, hence, no Garageband. But from what I've been reading so far, it's based on the Logic engine. I don't know if you can rewire FL into GB, AFAIK everything I've read so far indicates GB is a closed system. One thing you can do is add loops of which there are a lot marketed for GB right now. The EP I mentioned earlier used loops successfully.
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yun nga sabi ko diba, it has to be in the context of a song. ikaw na din nagsabi sa orig post mo dito, add some reverb to a pod track and the difference goes out the window ... or something to that effect. tone chasing? e kung maganda na nga yung tone na galing sa POD, ibig sabihin nahuli na...
In that particular A/B test, ang hinahabol ay ang tunog na lumalabas sa JBL far fields ni Shinji from the SM57 miking up the Randall's cab covered with a blanket. And naghahabol ay yung POD. Unfortunately, HINDI nahabol ng POD yung tunog ng amp. Kasi ang goal nga natin ay A/B diba? Sa totoo lang, gusto ko yung tunog ng JCM800 patch but for thatparticular test I was setting aside the preference for mid-gain sounds. I was more after measuring how much the PODXT would sound whenever there are very varied playing nuances. So since hindi nahabol yung tunog, invalid yung A/B test.
But then again, in the context of PRODUCTION, we cannot say one is better over the other because wala namang kanta in application. If a blues rock player used the Randall Plexi module the way you heard it in the studio, he would propbably prefer that to the JCM800 sim. But if some hard rocker had a choice he would most likely go for the JCM800 sim over the Randall Plexi module.
the fletcher munson effect is really not that much of a big deal when it comes to a/b'ing amps and amp sims. malaki ang epekto ng fletcher munson sa gigging musicians. pero kung satin at atin lang, kayang kaya nating ibaba ang volume knob. siguro kung may issue man dito, yung kung pano natin ima-mic yung amp para faithful yung tunog nito sa tracking room dun sa nacacapture natin on tape. sa tingin ko don malaki epekto ng fletcher munson because of the way we are exposed to extremely loud guitars in the tracking room.
Well that's it! You know how the FM phenomenon affects a performance. That is why some people prefer tracking vocals with an SM58 while there are wedge monitors (not headphones) blasting through him. That is because some want a more "live" effect. That is motivation. Now, what if some engineer would say "mahirap yan kasi may bleed tapos mas maganda ang U87, kaya dapat sa iso room ka magtrack." Don't you think that would have an effect on the performance? As sound engineers, we should try to extend our efforts to the most unappealing scenarios that in most cases, give us a huge pain in the butt to mix. We hate bleed, but what if that bleed will make the performance much better? Diba? So the whole point of this topic on FM for guitarplayers is that if a guitarplayer is really inspired with playing through an amp, then for Chrissakes (with Kit Coronel accent) mike it, capture it, and make him perform badass. Because if we point him to a POD which, in turn, would be much easier to set up, might make him less-inspired.
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1. The amp sim on the PODXT did NOT produce the same timbre produced by the Randall Plexi Module.
definitely.
2. The amp sim on the PODXT did NOT produce the same preamp compression produced by the Randall Plexi Module.
well a tube amp DOES compress a signal in glorious ways that, in my experience,. i have not seen done by a an amp sim ... solution: slap a compressor across the channel. that would work.
3. There was no backing track to see how well the track sits on the mix.
yeaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh.
4. We cannot make a good judgment on either amp or ampsim primarily because the guitar used was rather... muddy? I wonder but that guitar didn't have much sparkle, or rather "bingi" yung highs.
but the guitar worked on the pod :? plus ive heard it work quite nicely on the POD on another recording session in shinji's studio.
5. From a producer's standpoint, we cannot say one is better over the other unless we had a particular tone in mind for the project. And rightly so, this is not to say the POD kicked the Randall's butt or otherwise.
well you were the producer weren't you? you brought the amp to a/b. it was your idea. what tone did you have in mind? oh yeah, tube amp tones which the POD can never ever produce or else the solar system gets disaligned and the sky falls and the four hoursemen come marching down to commence armageddon ....
the only big divide i see here is wedged between your biases for and against amps and amp sims.
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Well that's it! You know how the FM phenomenon affects a performance. That is why some people prefer tracking vocals with an SM58 while there are wedge monitors (not headphones) blasting through him. That is because some want a more "live" effect. That is motivation. Now, what if some engineer would say "mahirap yan kasi may bleed tapos mas maganda ang U87, kaya dapat sa iso room ka magtrack." Don't you think that would have an effect on the performance? As sound engineers, we should try to extend our efforts to the most unappealing scenarios that in most cases, give us a huge pain in the butt to mix. We hate bleed, but what if that bleed will make the performance much better? Diba? So the whole point of this topic on FM for guitarplayers is that if a guitarplayer is really inspired with playing through an amp, then for Chrissakes (with Kit Coronel accent) mike it, capture it, and make him perform badass
i agree.
but pointing him to a pod might produce less inspired performances? pwede, pwede ding hindi. whatever works. one could actually use an amp sim alongside an amp. pwede din naman ipang-monitor ang amp kung talagang nakaka-inspire. for Chrissakes (in my very own spiteful, sarcastic tone), use a Reamp if you must ... although this entails added equipment yet again.
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well you were the producer weren't you? you brought the amp to a/b. it was your idea. what tone did you have in mind? oh yeah, tube amp tones which the POD can never ever produce or else the solar system gets disaligned and the sky falls and the four hoursemen come marching down to commence armageddon ....
I wasn't the producer in that scenario, Hazel. I was more of a "scientist" trying to rule out as many variables that can affect the A/B test. Unfortunately, I was a bad scientist. (No, I never was a scientist.) :-D
In fact, some say when Line 6 does their amp sims, they do real tests in an anechoic chamber. And then they have different convolution reverb models in their FX designs.
the only big divide i see here is between your biases for and against amps/amp sims.
And to settle that, we need a valid A/B test. But for the record, production values have nothing to do with A/B tests of amp sims or amps. It's all about inspiration.
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i agree.
but pointing him to a pod might produce less inspired performances? pwede, pwede ding hindi. whatever works. one could actually use an amp sim alongside an amp. pwede din naman ipang-monitor ang amp kung talagang nakaka-inspire. for Chrissakes (in my very own spiteful, sarcastic tone), use a Reamp if you must ... although this entails added equipment yet again.
Well, from what I've heard, since the dawn of powerful processing and 128 virtual-tracks or more platforms, engineers always break down signals to these:
1. A dry DI guitar track
2. an amp sim from a modeller
3. mikes in the room, etc.
#1 is the "safety track" should you reamp in the future. #2 is the instant tone you might or might not use in the mix. #3 is what needs to be mixed well to simulate realistic amp sounds. (Some of which you might not even use in the mix).
I'll give you an example. There is this engineer in the US I talked to and he said he had this bassplayer client who had too much love for his bass rig. So he uses a large 18" woofer, a 4x10 cab, and some tweeter in the cab. The bassplayer was so anal that he wanted all the speakers miked, including the tweeter. And the engineer did so... except that he also tapped a DI from the bass amp. So, with a feeling of security, Mr. Bassplayer played to his heart's content during tracking.
So when it was mixing time, haha, the engineer used the DI track, no more, no less. Maybe in that mix, it worked, and probably the bassplayer got duped. But that doesn't mean he was less-inspired.
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I don't have a Mac, hence, no Garageband. But from what I've been reading so far, it's based on the Logic engine. I don't know if you can rewire FL into GB, AFAIK everything I've read so far indicates GB is a closed system. One thing you can do is add loops of which there are a lot marketed for GB right now. The EP I mentioned earlier used loops successfully.
Thanks KitC,i'll just tinker around w/ it.
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Damn we're still at it?Mabuti may ka relyebo ako,skunk use pipino for those eyebag :-D
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Damn we're still at it?Mabuti may ka relyebo ako,skunk use pipino for those eyebag :-D
it's 1pm here. i use sleep as my solution to eyebags. :wink:
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it's 1pm here. i use sleep as my solution to eyebags. :wink:
hehe so inamin mo may eyebags ka ha,sorry for the interruption,pls continue. 8-)
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hehe so inamin mo may eyebags ka ha,sorry for the interruption,pls continue. 8-)
Wala po. Pag meron lang. :-D
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I don't have a Mac, hence, no Garageband. But from what I've been reading so far, it's based on the Logic engine. I don't know if you can rewire FL into GB, AFAIK everything I've read so far indicates GB is a closed system. One thing you can do is add loops of which there are a lot marketed for GB right now. The EP I mentioned earlier used loops successfully.
boss kit, fl studio's pc only. although they've been tryin to do versions of the synth plugins in macintel os.
yup, ang dami ngang loops for garageband nowadays. you can actually hear it in some songs apparently.
:-) :-) :-)
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Yeah just did a lil poking w/ garageband,the effects are nice.Pretty cool if ur always on the go.
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boss kit, fl studio's pc only. although they've been tryin to do versions of the synth plugins in macintel os.
:-o
OMG! Sound the alarms! My mind's beginning to slip...
(sorry... this thread's beginning to have an adverse effect on me...
now, what was that we were talking about again? oh yeah...
Jeeves! my brandy please... and don't forget the chocolates!
What was that? we were talking about macs? goodness gracious!
...is it daylight yet?)
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:-o
OMG! Sound the alarms! My mind's beginning to slip...
(sorry... this thread's beginning to have an adverse effect on me...
now, what was that we were talking about again? oh yeah...
Jeeves! my brandy please... and don't forget the chocolates!
What was that? we were talking about macs? goodness gracious!
...is it daylight yet?)
haha. pass on the vino and some cheeze! but i'll be fine with my bourbon.
this has been a very, very colorful thread, full of twists and turns. please do continue mga sir(s).
OT: it's kinda bizarre how jobs have better programmers than gates. mac os x on the intel's rock solid. can't say the same for vista. yet we soldier on with our pc's. minsan enjoy lang maging pc technician eh.
:-) :-) :-)
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So the whole point of this topic on FM for guitarplayers is that if a guitarplayer is really inspired with playing through an amp, then for Chrissakes (with Kit Coronel accent) mike it, capture it, and make him perform badass. Because if we point him to a POD which, in turn, would be much easier to set up, might make him less-inspired.
Hmmmm.... remind me to practice my mexican accent more... then I'll try applying in a call center, no?
There are calls for a 'talent' plugin which might very well be the solution to all our problems (including me!). Surprisingly enough, the plugin REALLY does exist... but only for midi (http://www.xoxos.net/vst/talent.html) (and it's not what you think).
Have a good one, all! and more vino, Vince!!! :-D aaahhhh, 1969... a good year....
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err last time i was reading something about trolls and and fm curve and now its wine tasting?U guys make me spend less time @ guitar central and more time here.
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Think of this forum as a means of broadening your horizons.
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I used my ears right from the start bro. The soundclips from the official site way back was what held me back from liking the POD. A lot of users post their POD recordings. Not impressed.
Dodjie - Can you kindly listen to the POD clips of this guy and post your impressions? If necessary, perhaps you can point out which clips seem to be relatively good, which ones are just ok, which ones suck?
http://www.robtognoni.com/line6.htm (http://www.robtognoni.com/line6.htm)
I'd be interested to hear also what the others think of this guy's POD tones.
I have my opinion (matagal na) but will reserve it for now.
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Dodjie - Can you kindly listen to the POD clips of this guy and post your impressions? If necessary, perhaps you can point out which clips seem to be relatively good, which ones are just ok, which ones suck?
http://www.robtognoni.com/line6.htm (http://www.robtognoni.com/line6.htm)
I'd be interested to hear also what the others think of this guy's POD tones.
I have my opinion (matagal na) but will reserve it for now.
The timbre is ok for the most part, but they feel a tad too flat or 1-D for a lack of a better term. Parang masyadong plateau yung dinig ko sa dynamics. The blues patches sounded too processed for me being that blues is all about dynamics. The cleans were alright, but we can never tell how these patches perform unless we used pedals and see how they respond. Obviously we cannot crank a POD but we can only simulate a cranked amp.
Something common among all the clips is the reverb seems to mask the flatness. I A/Bd them with amp tracks and I really cannot hear the dynamics with the POD. I cranked my monitors to see what I am missing and the POD still seemed too 1-dimensional.
Also, the presence is not there when I boost the volume. What I noticed with real miked-amp tracks is that they can sound a bit muddy at first, but when you mix with a band the mud goes away and the mids stay well in the mix UNEQ'd. Add a tad more highs then you're fine. As for the POD tracks, there seems to be a cutoff somewhere in the presence frequencies.
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The timbre is ok for the most part, but they feel a tad too flat or 1-D for a lack of a better term. Parang masyadong plateau yung dinig ko sa dynamics. The blues patches sounded too processed for me being that blues is all about dynamics. The cleans were alright, but we can never tell how these patches perform unless we used pedals and see how they respond. Obviously we cannot crank a POD but we can only simulate a cranked amp.
Something common among all the clips is the reverb seems to mask the flatness. I A/Bd them with amp tracks and I really cannot hear the dynamics with the POD. I cranked my monitors to see what I am missing and the POD still seemed too 1-dimensional.
Also, the presence is not there when I boost the volume. What I noticed with real miked-amp tracks is that they can sound a bit muddy at first, but when you mix with a band the mud goes away and the mids stay well in the mix UNEQ'd. Add a tad more highs then you're fine. As for the POD tracks, there seems to be a cutoff somewhere in the presence frequencies.
Ok. Thanks for sharing your opinion.
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After 9-7-07,
I'm walking the talk.
http://talk.philmusic.com/board/index.php/topic,61296.0.html
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btw, skunky, isn't this whole "modeler vs. tube amp for recording" debate kyna pointless when you settle on 'inspiration' as the reason why guitarists should use tube amps vs. modelers in a studio? it's like throwing a very subjective variable like "love" into a mathematical formula. i was hoping you geeks stick to the tech-talk and let ignorant romantics like me say, "At the end of the day, kanya kanya lang yan!" :-D
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btw, skunky, isn't this whole "modeler vs. tube amp for recording" debate kyna pointless when you settle on 'inspiration' as the reason why guitarists should use tube amps vs. modelers in a studio? it's like throwing a very subjective variable like "love" into a mathematical formula. i was hoping you geeks stick to the tech-talk and let ignorant romantics like me say, "At the end of the day, kanya kanya lang yan!" :-D
I just said there is a difference, and the difference matters to some, and to others it may be killing an ant with a sledge hammer so he uses a POD or anything of similar application.
It's just that some haven't experienced the difference yet through A/Bing. Opo, kanya-kanya lang yan just like how we have different religions, but sometimes, you got to explain "kung bakit para sa akin, ganito ang pananampalataya ko..."
I just want to cry out loud for the people who have come to me na tinikom ang bibig ng engineer na sinabi ok lang ang POD kung amp ang hinahanap niya. (And for the case of drummers, drum replacement by force when they wanted effective miking and tuning.)
Delta, since may experience ka naman sa PODXT and Tonelab, are you honest enough to say there is no difference? And that the difference does not affect you at all?
If you watch the Bogner/Line 6 interview with Reinhold, it is very implicitly stated there that there is a difference between digital emulations and tubes. Kaya nga "the ultimate [marriage]..."
Now going back to your "love" as part of a mathematical formula, in all honesty, YES IT IS PART OF THE EQUATION, BY A HUGE AMOUNT. Why? Because artists want to be involved in the art they make, and sometimes, when engineers force them to do things they do not want (knowing some Pinoys are very shy by nature) they can feel manipulated into using something that really can't do the job. I would gladly give a guitarplayer a DI box and software or maybe a POD if that is what he reallywants and really needs, but not to steer him away from using an amp if that is what the production calls for. Have you tried using guitar feedback at different angles with a POD? Have you tried pinch harmonics with a POD? And in most cases so far, majority still prefer the amp. Maybe because I own a modular amp which technically, is a modelling amp too, only that you're using real tubes. But at that, I still cannot say my tone palette is as broad so I look forward to the L6 Bogner Spider Valve.
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Maybe ignorance really is bliss in the case of music-related equipment.
I STILL like them all. :-D
And if I think about it, "love" shouldn't be part of the equation because this isn't the guitar/guitarist or the musicians-are-us forum. It's the Audio Scientists' forum. Technical specifications not technique preference. EQ curves and transparency issues instead of song structure and musical improvisation. Objectivity (or as close to it as possible) and Technicality. That sort of thing
But it might not be as fun.
Ultimately, guitar playing and guitar amps and guitars are such a small part of the Music Technology & Pro Audio Science and the Recording Art. So as someone who delves into the recordist's aspect of it, I'd prefer to have both options available so we can move on to...
Recording The Bass Guitar: Amps Or Direct?
*bili ng popcorn*sits back to watch the fireworks*
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Recording The Bass Guitar: Amps Or Direct?
*bili ng popcorn*sits back to watch the fireworks*
I've tried both but mixing the bass mics can be a pain in the butt to mix. However, I think the bass guitar is 80% responsible for the tone. If you want that Motown slap and your bass is lifeless, forget it. No amount of direct or amp miking can save that.
On the contrary, crappy guitars can still "compete" when they get masked by distortion and effects. Bass seems to be more conservative.
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Maybe ignorance really is bliss in the case of music-related equipment.
yup! and not havin deep enough pockets to buy those boutique amps, which we are tempted to, and most likely buy, if we got the funds.
:-) :-) :-)
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I wish I had deep enough pockets, but nooooooo.... so I make do with what I have and if I can't make my equipment jump through hoops, then I'm in the wrong business. It's nice to dream and pine for those equipment that make me drool, but until I can't make good music with whatever's on hand, I won't make good music at all with more expensive equipment.
<tukayo! how about some brewski with the popcorn? Vince can bring the wine and cheese... hehe :wink: >
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Delta, since may experience ka naman sa PODXT and Tonelab, are you honest enough to say there is no difference? And that the difference does not affect you at all?
Yes there is a difference cuz, as I've been saying, they are apples and oranges. Use the tool that does the job cost-effectively.
If you're just referring to pure tone: yes, there is a difference and my findings have been different at different situations for different PODs and amps. There's one time I hated my POD2 cuz it didn't sound good through the PA in a live rehearsal situation. But it sounded great and better than I could ever make my tube amps sound for a PC recording. The XTL sounded ok at home through the TM60s power section. It sounded so-so, live. But again, it sounded great for recording. The Tonelab sounded ok for recording but it sounded better through the power section of the TM60. More importantly, it sounded better live in a gig when I used it. In fact, I think it sounded better than my tube amp if I had brought one. At least, I'm sure it sounded better than the other amps at the venue (Purple Haze). Very natural, tube-like, even. But that's not the point; it sounded good, period. If you need a testimonial from other people who heard, let me know.
Now going back to your "love" as part of a mathematical formula, in all honesty, YES IT IS PART OF THE EQUATION, BY A HUGE AMOUNT. Why? Because artists want to be involved in the art they make, and sometimes, when engineers force them to do things they do not want (knowing some Pinoys are very shy by nature) they can feel manipulated into using something that really can't do the job. I would gladly give a guitarplayer a DI box and software or maybe a POD if that is what he reallywants and really needs, but not to steer him away from using an amp if that is what the production calls for. Have you tried using guitar feedback at different angles with a POD? Have you tried pinch harmonics with a POD? And in most cases so far, majority still prefer the amp. Maybe because I own a modular amp which technically, is a modelling amp too, only that you're using real tubes. But at that, I still cannot say my tone palette is as broad so I look forward to the L6 Bogner Spider Valve.
I was lazy to type and explain my point; I was half-expecting you'd miss it, and you did.
The point is I expect you sound engineers to argumentatively discuss these things in technical terms. In short 'hard' stuff. When the discussion suddenly turns to 'soft' stuff, it gets a little fuzzy and the logical reasoning kyna falls through the cracks, you know? Why not make the assumption, for the sake of moving the discussion forward, that the artist is inspired, or is at a certain level of inspiration, regardless whether POD or tube is used, and then discuss the differences in objective terms?
BTW, it's funny you have to remind me (by shouting pa ha) that love and inspiration is part of the equation of making music... :roll:
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discuss the differences in objective terms?
That is in such short supply nowadays, Joric. I chalk it up to too much or too little coffee for some. That's why I drink tea instead.... :lol:
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That is in such short supply nowadays, Joric. I chalk i up to too much or too little coffee for some. That's why I drink tea instead.... :lol:
Sir, what can't be more objective than saying:
1. Amps have different volume capabilities.
2. PODs and amp sims work on the same domain of loudness of a particular monitoring scenario.
3. Tube amps have more mystical finger response compared to SS and digital. (This is not relative. Many players agree that tube amps have a very different response compared to digital amp sims. The more relative factor though, is how a guitar player prefers a certain type of finger-response.)
4. Amps are expensive and PODs are the cheaper alternative.
5. Miking an amp can be a pain in the butt.
6. PODs are easier to work with because most are either in a hurry or lazy.
7. Engineers like working on tracks with less bleed. (Let's not deny this fact.)
8. Amps can disturb the neighbors.
9. PODs cannot disturb the neighbors unless you're using it through large speakers.
10. Objectivity necessitates ruling out biases. But how can you say one is being objective if they do not know what different clients are biased about?
Bottomline is, I understand that with digital technology, we are blessed with more tools for recording. We should also thank cheap Chinese labor as well because we cannot have good mics for cheap if not for them. But what we should bear in mind is that the cheaper alternatives are not direct replacements for their counterparts. That is where the confusion stems from. I have an ADK Hamburg myself, that some say is a very good U87 clone. I haven't heard the U87 vs Hamburg tracks from Shinji myself, but does that make me think it should be a direct replacement for the U87? No. Can it outperform the U87? Not necessarily. But what is it that people like about the U87 for recording? It is the fact that it is a classic mic that many famous singers have sang to. Now whether you can make a close copy to the U87 doesn't mean you're getting a real u87.
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Why not make the assumption, for the sake of moving the discussion forward, that the artist is inspired, or is at a certain level of inspiration, regardless whether POD or tube is used, and then discuss the differences in objective terms?
I cannot really make an assumption that one can be inspired if he's not happy with the tone coming out of the monitors or amp. To rephrase that, my goal as an engineer is give the artist options and make him decide what will make him inspired.
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I like reading the dictionary sometimes...
ob·fus·cate /ˈɒbfəˌskeɪt, ɒbˈfʌskeɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ob-fuh-skeyt, ob-fuhs-keyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object), -cat·ed, -cat·ing.
1. to confuse, bewilder, or stupefy.
2. to make obscure or unclear: to obfuscate a problem with extraneous information.
3. to darken.
Obfuscation is part of the problem in some areas of our lives... aside from coffee.
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Obfuscation is part of the problem in some areas of our lives... aside from coffee.
nice point kit!
slightly OT: speakin of coffee, you might need this => Arabian Mocha Sanani by Starbucks (http://www.starbucksstore.com/products/shprodde.asp?SKU=312969)!
(http://www.starbucksstore.com.edgesuite.net/images/products/shprodde/312969.jpg)
pretty good stuff. if you like em strong.
:-) :-) :-)
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Yun oh... napunata naman sa kape! :?
Sarap. :-D
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nice point kit!
slightly OT: speakin of coffee, you might need this => Arabian Mocha Sanani by Starbucks (http://www.starbucksstore.com/products/shprodde.asp?SKU=312969)!
pretty good stuff. if you like em strong.
:-) :-) :-)
Obfuscating the issue by confusing me with coffee... but I like my mocha! :lol:
EDIT: Vince, last time I drank strong coffee, I didn't get to sleep for the entire night! But thanks for the tip! I think I'm gonna borrow my nephew's espresso machine, or maybe fire up the ol' percolator. :-D
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For the love of God! :|
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Hahahahahaha! I should start reading the dictionary. Parang sapul e. :-D
Masarap nga mag kape minsan.
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Mother of God...i didn't look at this thread because I thought it was a theoretical discussion, turns out it wasn't. Kit, where is that pop corn?
But seriously, if the job of an engineer is to provide options and you have options to do the providing then, what is the problem? Have the guy pick an amp, a guitar, a chair, mic your amp, monitor, repeat tweaking if necessary. The way I see it, the problem should focus on the actual usage of the stuff you DO have access to instead of doing a rhetorical analysis of whether or not it is subjectively sound to say a tube amp is better than a ss digital amp. Got both? Use em. Don't got 'em? use what you got. Tubes aren't going anywhere and neither are digital amps because someone, somewhere is going to use them for some song in some record. In fact, I don't really think using one over the other makes a mountain of a difference if the result rocks, sells records and gets a happy client in the end.
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The timbre is ok for the most part, but they feel a tad too flat or 1-D for a lack of a better term. Parang masyadong plateau yung dinig ko sa dynamics. The blues patches sounded too processed for me being that blues is all about dynamics. The cleans were alright, but we can never tell how these patches perform unless we used pedals and see how they respond. Obviously we cannot crank a POD but we can only simulate a cranked amp.
Something common among all the clips is the reverb seems to mask the flatness. I A/Bd them with amp tracks and I really cannot hear the dynamics with the POD. I cranked my monitors to see what I am missing and the POD still seemed too 1-dimensional.
Also, the presence is not there when I boost the volume. What I noticed with real miked-amp tracks is that they can sound a bit muddy at first, but when you mix with a band the mud goes away and the mids stay well in the mix UNEQ'd. Add a tad more highs then you're fine. As for the POD tracks, there seems to be a cutoff somewhere in the presence frequencies.
The tracks definitely sound tubeLIKE,and I trust my ears.The clips are a tad bit on the compressed side but who cares?And yes the guy seems inspired when he recorded those clips :roll:.I remember Dimebag was inspired when he recorded Cowboys from Hell album with a SS Randall amp.You know what's inspiring than a glowing EL34?Groupies!
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I like reading the dictionary sometimes...
ob·fus·cate /ˈɒbfəˌskeɪt, ɒbˈfʌskeɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ob-fuh-skeyt, ob-fuhs-keyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object), -cat·ed, -cat·ing.
1. to confuse, bewilder, or stupefy.
2. to make obscure or unclear: to obfuscate a problem with extraneous information.
3. to darken.
Obfuscation is part of the problem in some areas of our lives... aside from coffee.
Haha... obfuscation! Right on the nose, KitC. :-)
The last time I used that word was to call out a colleague at work who couldn't seem to argue intelligibly with me. Maybe I had too much coffee and the dangerously high caffeine levels make you use highfalutin words. LOL!
But yeah, we need more edification, less obfuscation! :-D
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The tracks definitely sound tubeLIKE,and I trust my ears.The clips are a tad bit on the compressed side but who cares?And yes the guy seems inspired when he recorded those clips :roll:.I remember Dimebag was inspired when he recorded Cowboys from Hell album with a SS Randall amp.
Thanks for sharing yours, Alroy. I'm not too hip on the technical aspects of recording but I do use my ears as a guide so my assessment would be very analog: "sounds great", "sounds ok", "ugh!". ganun!
OT: don't know if i told you, i slapped a pair of Harmonic Design S90s on your '69 Tele Thinline. used it for slide but eventually found SGs better for slide so I sold the Tele to Diego of Sandwhich. Naka ilang MTV and televised concerts na ung Tele mo/natin! and one small trivia: there was another seller i used to visit in the novaliches/lagro area in the early/mid 90s. i didn't remember her name but it turns out it was "starfugger"!!! grabe, small world!
You know what's inspiring than a glowing EL34?Groupies!
Or a nice bunch of pretty waitresses like at RJTV last night. Wonder if RJ handpick 'em hisself. ;-)
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Thanks for sharing yours, Alroy. I'm not too hip on the technical aspects of recording but I do use my ears as a guide so my assessment would be very analog: "sounds great", "sounds ok", "ugh!". ganun!
OT: don't know if i told you, i slapped a pair of Harmonic Design S90s on your '69 Tele Thinline. used it for slide but eventually found SGs better for slide so I sold the Tele to Diego of Sandwhich. Naka ilang MTV and televised concerts na ung Tele mo/natin! and one small trivia: there was another seller i used to visit in the novaliches/lagro area in the early/mid 90s. i didn't remember her name but it turns out it was "starfugger"!!! grabe, small world!
Or a nice bunch of pretty waitresses like at RJTV last night. Wonder if RJ handpick 'em hisself. ;-)
delta, i saw your gig on youtube, man. nice slide tone! i love the tele sound myself but humbuckers do sound beefier for that slide sound with swagger like the Black Crowes in "Twice As Hard."
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SO what is Delta's point? Tatagalugin ko na, para bang nanlilito ako? O di kaya ang tunay na katotohanan, ay nakakalito talaga ang dulot ng teknolohiya sa atin? Marami akong kilala na nagsasabi na "ang ganda ng tunog ng Hammond Organ" kasi nakasubok sila ng NI B4. Ako naman, nakasubok na magrecord ng Hammond Organ sa simbahan, at sabi ko talagang maganda ang Hammond Organ, pero ang B4 ang pinakamalapit na "recorded tone" ng Hammond B3. Pero hindi lang siya 400lbs. Pero kung ako tatanungin, iba ang experience ng paggamit ng Hammond Organ. It is the voice of God ika nga...
I am just mentioning the fact that when artists step into a recording studio, they want to feel inspired. Maybe the best piece of equipment that the production calls for does not lie around the studio. Now, if the producer is really that serious, he should be able to outsource the stuff needed for the project. If there is a budget constraint, then exhaust all options. Not the typical template that "there's a POD, so why bother?"
Regarding Dimebag using Randall SS amps, he was very clear about what he wanted. It was that SS tone that he got from the Randall RG100 (AFAIK). That was what he wanted and I cannot discount that he had tried other amps alongside to find his tone. Albert King used a SS amp. (Which ironically SRV wanted to cop using his rigs). What I do notice about tube snobs is that they always use these people as examples to say that you don't need a tube amp. Heck, we all know that. The next question is why did they choose SS? And the answer to that is simple... They chose them over a bunch of other stuff.
Delta seemed to have mangled this discussion into an "inspiration in a recording" type of thread. The title says that the Fletcher Munson phenomenon is a manifestation of why some guitarplayers prefer amps, and why they prefer them in a recording.
Tutal, Delta seems to like putting me on the spot and trying to speak for everyone, I'm gonna ask a few more questions for him.
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delta, i saw your gig on youtube, man. nice slide tone! i love the tele sound myself but humbuckers do sound beefier for that slide sound with swagger like the Black Crowes in "Twice As Hard."
hey, tnx abyss! pero you know what? that kind of tone, kaya replicate sa POD/modeller! pramis! it was more of an accident how i got that tone. i'd liked it to be a bit middy and a tad dirtier (live band, big stage...), pero anytime i can get clear sustaining notes out there, i'm happy. :-D
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SO what is Delta's point? Tatagalugin ko na, para bang nanlilito ako?
Simple lang ang punto at sinabi ko na sa taas. Di ko magets ang punto ng discussion kung moving target ang issue. Una FM, then FM in live vs recording situations, then POD vs. modeller, tapos napunta ka sa "necessary ang tube amp sa studio for inspiration which you can't get out of a POD." What is YOUR point?
O di kaya ang tunay na katotohanan, ay nakakalito talaga ang dulot ng teknolohiya sa atin?
Don't blame technology, it can't defend itself. Humans try to make sense of the world. Sometimes we don't succeed. Nagpupunta ako rito para matuto, pero minsan mas naguguluhan ako!
Delta seemed to have mangled this discussion into an "inspiration in a recording" type of thread.
See above. You are the one who dragged this 'inspiration' issue into the equation and mangled it. Before that, it could have been a scientific problem. Then it became a metaphysical problem. If I'm going to record, I don't want my sound engineer to talk metaphysics.
Tutal, Delta seems to like putting me on the spot...
You actually feel like you're on the spot? What on earth for? Posting behind a keyboard and you feel on the spot? Don't know how you say I put you on the spot; you seem to do a fine job by yourself.
...and trying to speak for everyone,
Hmmm... don't know how you came up with that either. About 99% of the people in this Music Tech & Pro Audio board are smarter and more knowledgeable than me and I can't profess to speak for any of them. They're smart adults -- they speak for themselves. I'm no engineer but I'd like to hear them engineers talk like engineers instead of philosophers.
I'm gonna ask a few more questions for him.
More questions? For moi?! Mapagkakamalan ka na namang clone ng best pren mo nyan! I suggest you keep em to yourself or address to the rest who are more knowledgeable than I am. You'll get smarter answers to all of your questions. Oh wait, I remembered -- all your questions are rhetorical cuz you know all the answers already!
:-D :-D :-D
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btw, skunky, isn't this whole "modeler vs. tube amp for recording" debate kyna pointless when you settle on 'inspiration' as the reason why guitarists should use tube amps vs. modelers in a studio?
It is not pointless if guitarplayers want to choose between an amp and an amp sim. It is pointless though if the guitarplayer wants a POD and nothing more.
it's like throwing a very subjective variable like "love" into a mathematical formula.
So now here's someone equating math to getting a particular sound for recording. You need to love a sound to get it. An engineer at some point, should try to put himself in the guitarplayer's shoes, with his studio engineering brains to get the sound.
i was hoping you geeks stick to the tech-talk and let ignorant romantics like me say, "At the end of the day, kanya kanya lang yan!" :-D
Kanya-kanyang preference po, pero para sa aming mga nagrerecording, mahirap yan kasi walang isang template or "one size fits all" na approach para lahat ng may kanya-kanyang gusto ay maging masaya. Kaya po, ang solusyon, ay amps or amp sims. Pero ang namimiss ng karamihan ay ang paggamit ng amps dahil walang amp sa studio, na maaaring magbigay ng mas magandang resulta sa recording.
Yes there is a difference cuz, as I've been saying, they are apples and oranges. Use the tool that does the job cost-effectively.
So using a Deluxe Reverb sim and a Deluxe Reverb is Apples and Oranges? Or is it a bad apple vs. a good apple? You own a Deluxe Reverb right? Answer honestly. Kung sa bagay you said use the tool that does the job cost-effectively. If that is the case, you are not all for tone, but for convenience. And recording, sad to say, is not about convenience per se, but trying to make a legacy out of your art so make sure you get the best sounds on record.
If you're just referring to pure tone: yes, there is a difference and my findings have been different at different situations for different PODs and amps. There's one time I hated my POD2 cuz it didn't sound good through the PA in a live rehearsal situation. But it sounded great and better than I could ever make my tube amps sound for a PC recording.
Because recording amps can be a pain in the butt. And that is the discipline you learn when you start recording amps. It is like training yourself to be the best photographer during the least picturesque moments. And I am not surprised that you seem to get better results using the POD because it's a no-brainer. But once you try doing some nuances in some guitar lines like rolling off the volume back and forth, that's when you notice that the POD is still less better than an amp.
Why not make the assumption, for the sake of moving the discussion forward, that the artist is inspired, or is at a certain level of inspiration, regardless whether POD or tube is used, and then discuss the differences in objective terms?
I'm more of a "means to an end" guy than a "end justifies the means" type.
Thanks for sharing yours, Alroy. I'm not too hip on the technical aspects of recording but I do use my ears as a guide so my assessment would be very analog: "sounds great", "sounds ok", "ugh!". ganun!
We hear things differently, but as an engineer, it is his right to ward off any act that can ruin his reputation. For the record, I would doubt that the average Juan Dela Cruz would care about PODs and real amps, but that's not how music affects people. It is all about making the best production to serve the songs so that they can convey the songs' messages correctly. Now, that doesn't mean that we should lose sight of production simply because "it's all about the song, and song is king..." type of argument.
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Simple lang ang punto at sinabi ko na sa taas. Di ko magets ang punto ng discussion kung moving target ang issue. Una FM, then FM in live vs recording situations, then POD vs. modeller, tapos napunta ka sa "necessary ang tube amp sa studio for inspiration which you can't get out of a POD." What is YOUR point?
1. The FM phenomenon is manifested by different levels of loudness. Some amps are loud, some are soft.
2. Since each and every amp has its own level of loudness, and timbre, the way one guitarplayer gets inspired is different from another. One might be fired up in a recording situation with a loud half-stack (paging Manny Amador) but for someone doing blues like you, that would be irritating loud volume (timbre aside).
3. Since volume has a bearing on the guitarplayer, using something that is way softer than the volume he's used to can adversely affect his performance/
4. For the engineer, the volume doesn't matter for as long as he can tame the volume through his mic preamps and whatnot.
5. The problem with #4 though, is that some things that you hear in a loud amp cannot be heard through monitors, which is why some think an amp is "muddy" when in fact, by boosting the monitors to high levels, that is when you notice the sizzle in the amp speakers being captured by the mics.
6. PODs and similar devices are nothing more but models of an amp being miked, and there are response and volume issues which they cannot address.
7. I am not anti-POD. I am more of "anti-by default and 95% of the time you should use POD".
Hay naku... sana nga dumating na yang Spider Valve... I'm not anti-digital either.
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It is not pointless if guitarplayers want to choose between an amp and an amp sim. It is pointless though if the guitarplayer wants a POD and nothing more.
So now here's someone equating math to getting a particular sound for recording. You need to love a sound to get it. An engineer at some point, should try to put himself in the guitarplayer's shoes, with his studio engineering brains to get the sound.
Kanya-kanyang preference po, pero para sa aming mga nagrerecording, mahirap yan kasi walang isang template or "one size fits all" na approach para lahat ng may kanya-kanyang gusto ay maging masaya. Kaya po, ang solusyon, ay amps or amp sims. Pero ang namimiss ng karamihan ay ang paggamit ng amps dahil walang amp sa studio, na maaaring magbigay ng mas magandang resulta sa recording.
So using a Deluxe Reverb sim and a Deluxe Reverb is Apples and Oranges? Or is it a bad apple vs. a good apple? You own a Deluxe Reverb right? Answer honestly. Kung sa bagay you said use the tool that does the job cost-effectively. If that is the case, you are not all for tone, but for convenience. And recording, sad to say, is not about convenience per se, but trying to make a legacy out of your art so make sure you get the best sounds on record.
Because recording amps can be a pain in the butt. And that is the discipline you learn when you start recording amps. It is like training yourself to be the best photographer during the least picturesque moments. And I am not surprised that you seem to get better results using the POD because it's a no-brainer. But once you try doing some nuances in some guitar lines like rolling off the volume back and forth, that's when you notice that the POD is still less better than an amp.
I'm more of a "means to an end" guy than a "end justifies the means" type.
We hear things differently, but as an engineer, it is his right to ward off any act that can ruin his reputation. For the record, I would doubt that the average Juan Dela Cruz would care about PODs and real amps, but that's not how music affects people. It is all about making the best production to serve the songs so that they can convey the songs' messages correctly. Now, that doesn't mean that we should lose sight of production simply because "it's all about the song, and song is king..." type of argument.
Haaay... this is just all sad, skunky. Walang pupuntahan talaga ang usapang to kung di naman nagkakaintindihan. You're off-tanget to just about everything I have to say so I'll give it a rest. You could have taken my original comment constructively and refocused the discussion on your topic but you chose to make IT (starring ME!) the topic instead.
Pero regarding your equally sad allegation that I don't care for tone, here's something that can be empirically verified:
If A does the job and costs $100, but B does the job just as well but costs $10, then B is said to be more cost-effective than A.
Gets mo na? Yes, I'm a cheap bastard... but because of basic business principles like cost-effectiveness, I'm a cheap AND smart bastard.
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Mother of God...i didn't look at this thread because I thought it was a theoretical discussion, turns out it wasn't. Kit, where is that pop corn?
But seriously, if the job of an engineer is to provide options and you have options to do the providing then, what is the problem? Have the guy pick an amp, a guitar, a chair, mic your amp, monitor, repeat tweaking if necessary. The way I see it, the problem should focus on the actual usage of the stuff you DO have access to instead of doing a rhetorical analysis of whether or not it is subjectively sound to say a tube amp is better than a ss digital amp. Got both? Use em. Don't got 'em? use what you got. Tubes aren't going anywhere and neither are digital amps because someone, somewhere is going to use them for some song in some record. In fact, I don't really think using one over the other makes a mountain of a difference if the result rocks, sells records and gets a happy client in the end.
haha abbys, ganon din iniisip ko, kaya "i didn't look at this thread" din.. akala ko tapos na tong usapan, 10 pages na naman..
Mag-dicuss kayo tungkol sa mas creative na bagay!...
shinji
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If A does the job and costs $100, but B does the job just as well but costs $10, then B is said to be more cost-effective than A.
Gets mo na? Yes, I'm a cheap bastard... but because of basic business principles like cost-effectiveness, I'm a cheap AND smart bastard.
Yes, but the $10 piece of gear is not necessarily the "POD". You can rent out stuff you know. Or the magic word... "Peram ng amp mo."
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If A does the job and costs $100, but B does the job just as well but costs $10, then B is said to be more cost-effective than A.
Gets mo na? Yes, I'm a cheap bastard... but because of basic business principles like cost-effectiveness, I'm a cheap AND smart bastard.
Hey, if it works, it works. If I could have spent less money of the outboard gear I got at the studio and STILL have the sound that I want, why not spend less? I ain't about to be an idiot and spend more money than I have to...
I think the main point of this series of posts got lost in the fray...wait...was there one? I forget. *goes back to munching on popcorn*
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Hey, if it works, it works. If I could have spent less money of the outboard gear I got at the studio and STILL have the sound that I want, why not spend less? I ain't about to be an idiot and spend more money than I have to...
I think the main point of this series of posts got lost in the fray...wait...was there one? I forget. *goes back to munching on popcorn*
Kasi po, kung cost-efficiency rin lang ang pinag-uusapan, huwag na tayo magbayad ng studio kung DI lang naman gagawin natin. Eh di bumili ka na lang ng Pocket POD for $129 or kahit 2nd hand POD. Use it with your home PC. No pressure with recording time. Now that is cost-efficiency.
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Yes, but the $10 piece of gear is not necessarily the "POD". You can rent out stuff you know. Or the magic word... "Peram ng amp mo."
POD, solid state or tube - I think Delta's point was that being cost effective to get a job DONE calls for using whatever piece of gear you have access to without spending money to make a great recording. If a cheaper piece of gear does the job just as well as an expensive one, why not use it? You can nit pick this mofo all you want and delve into the details but the fact remains: what purpose are you trying to fulfill by opting to spend money to rent or buy some piece of gear when something you already have will suffice? Are you trying to make a good recording or looking to gain access to bragging right by having used a particular piece of gear? In my experience, most people in the audience are oblivious to gear snobbery and could give two sh*ts about what you use as long as it sounds good.
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Kasi po, kung cost-efficiency rin lang ang pinag-uusapan, huwag na tayo magbayad ng studio kung DI lang naman gagawin natin. Eh di bumili ka na lang ng Pocket POD for $129 or kahit 2nd hand POD. Use it with your home PC. No pressure with recording time. Now that is cost-efficiency.
you can't equate cost efficiency with having the conscious desire to have a recording sound a certain way, this is like comparing grapes and papayas. it is quite obvious that a POD will sound different from a tube amp in a lot of ways, however, the question then becomes: do you want to just make a recording and get a song on disk OR do you want to make a recording, get a song on disk AND sound a certain way. The addition of certain parameters nullifies cost-efficiency in this scenario because you are putting in your expectation to sound a specific way which requires particular gear and added cost. The existence of this very concept of "wanting to sound a certain way" is the reason why professional studios and semi-professional studios exist because, for some things, a specific set of studio recording equipment is needed.
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Run an NI B4 into a real Leslie and it will sound like "the voice of God". Run practically any good organ patch into a Leslie and chances are it will sound good. This is one case where spinning rotors and moving air do give Leslie simulators the short stack.... for now (although the Motion Sound cabs faithfully recreate that famed Leslie sound, eh Marvin?). Eventually things will progress to the point where most everything is virtual. Damn... I hope they don't do it to sex like what they did Stallone and Bullock in "Demolition Man".
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POD, solid state or tube - I think Delta's point was that being cost effective to get a job DONE calls for using whatever piece of gear you have access to without spending money to make a great recording. If a cheaper piece of gear does the job just as well as an expensive one, why not use it? You can nit pick this mofo all you want and delve into the details but the fact remains: what purpose are you trying to fulfill by opting to spend money to rent or buy some piece of gear when something you already have will suffice? Are you trying to make a good recording or looking to gain access to bragging right by having used a particular piece of gear? In my experience, most people in the audience are oblivious to gear snobbery and could give two sh*ts about what you use as long as it sounds good.
And in the same regard, people don't care if Beyonce sang through a $3K Neumann U87 or a $300 MXL V69. Pero ask all the music studio people around here, if they don't GAS for a U87.
Getting the job done =/= getting the job PERFECTLY
But you're right. Sometimes cost can be a deterrent to getting the job perfectly. I've seen the best recordings done on Chinese mics and cheap headphones as monitors, and atrocious recordings done in 4-figure/hour studios. The bottomline is, choosing the best equipment and studio (and quite frankly, the engineer) for the project. Presentation is still the be-all and end-all of the matter. But for God's sake, how many Pinoy recordings are being made at this point, and how many of them can obtain worldwide acclamation? You said it before, that it doesn't mean that because one OPM song has gotten played on Philippine radio, doesn't mean it did not sound any less crappy. You even mentioned a famous band with great songs, great arrangement, with crappy production.
It is not that I am maligning our recordings in general, in fact I feel that the prevailing paradigm and business models of the record companies (where they give least budget to the recording, get the most "decent" recorded tone and not to the point of godliness and channel most of the budget to marketing) is an insult to Pinoy talent.
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Run an NI B4 into a real Leslie and it will sound like "the voice of God". Run practically any good organ patch into a Leslie and chances are it will sound good. This is one case where spinning rotors and moving air do give Leslie simulators the short stack.... for now (although the Motion Sound cabs faithfully recreate that famed Leslie sound, eh Marvin?). Eventually things will progress to the point where most everything is virtual. Damn... I hope they don't do it to sex like what they did Stallone and Bullock in "Demolition Man".
Sir I beg to disagree. The chapel organ in UP diliman is a Hammond C2, and it doesn't have your fancy Leslie rotating speakers or percussion. It still sounds like God's voice. And by not using the B4's percussion and Leslie emulations, the sound is barely there, but still cannot compete with the C2. But I still love B4 nonetheless.
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Everyone stare at this for a few minutes...
(http://www.scentednectar.com/spiral/spiral.gif)
I've been having this same feeling since the first page.
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gaaah my eyes!!!
oh and that spinning gif makes me a bit dizzy, too. :lol:
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hahaha! this thread feels like a pinoy movie. halong aksyon, drama at komedi!
:-) :-) :-)
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And in the same regard, people don't care if Beyonce sang through a $3K Neumann U87 or a $300 MXL V69. Pero ask all the music studio people around here, if they don't GAS for a U87.
Getting the job done =/= getting the job PERFECTLY
ok....if the problem is getting it done perfectly, then invest in the equipment that will give you the result that you want. my beef with the direction of the thread discussion is this: sure, people GAS for the good stuff, I do too, but the fact remains that what we GAS for can be some pretty spendy things so we do the next best thing: we stop complaining and up the ante on recording because complaining about stuff we don't have ain't gonna get anything done faster. great records have been made with less stuff but it never stopped people from honing the parts of the music making process that they COULD improve given the absence of high quality studio recording equipment. Fletcher Munson effect be damned, unless you have the money, the resources and the means to invest in stuff that will get you that PERFECT recording (whatever a person's idea of perfect recording is), you're going to have to make do with what you got.
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Everyone stare at this for a few minutes...
(http://www.scentednectar.com/spiral/spiral.gif)
OT: optical illusion... stare at it for one minute. After one minute, stare at something else... astig ang effect.
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@inigo - there are other ways to achieve the same effect. :lol: :lol: :lol: mine's with Hennesy VSOP.
@Shinji- open ka naman ng thread! Here's a suggestion... what was the most difficult song/vocal/instrument you ever mixed? Let's hear it from DA MAN!
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hahaha! this thread feels like a pinoy movie. halong aksyon, drama at komedi!
:-D
Kape muna ako...
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:-D
Kape muna ako...
Want some popcorn to go with it? :lol: :lol: :lol:
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coffee and popcorn? hmmm... fusion cuisine na ba tayo ngayon?
:-) :-) :-)
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Don't get me started. :lol:
I'm mulling whether to move this to the anything goes forums.... oh, why bother? It's much more fun here.
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Hahaha! What a thread! This is a good break from moderating the newbie-infested Guitar Central and Classifieds: Guitar and Bass Accessories forums :lol:
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With all the references to coffee, wine, cheese, alcohol and the occasional starchy food, I'm thinking of renaming this to "Fusion Food for Thought".
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Run an NI B4 into a real Leslie and it will sound like "the voice of God". Run practically any good organ patch into a Leslie and chances are it will sound good. This is one case where spinning rotors and moving air do give Leslie simulators the short stack.... for now (although the Motion Sound cabs faithfully recreate that famed Leslie sound, eh Marvin?). Eventually things will progress to the point where most everything is virtual. Damn... I hope they don't do it to sex like what they did Stallone and Bullock in "Demolition Man".
No truer words have been said.
Technology is where all the reasearch $ are in. I really wouldnt be surprised if a few years down the road what you fear would come true. It's gonna be a Line 6 SEX POD XT 2000, a Tech 21 SansSkin or something. :-D :-D :-D
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more popcorn please
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Thanks for sharing yours, Alroy. I'm not too hip on the technical aspects of recording but I do use my ears as a guide so my assessment would be very analog: "sounds great", "sounds ok", "ugh!". ganun!
OT: don't know if i told you, i slapped a pair of Harmonic Design S90s on your '69 Tele Thinline. used it for slide but eventually found SGs better for slide so I sold the Tele to Diego of Sandwhich. Naka ilang MTV and televised concerts na ung Tele mo/natin! and one small trivia: there was another seller i used to visit in the novaliches/lagro area in the early/mid 90s. i didn't remember her name but it turns out it was "starfugger"!!! grabe, small world!
Or a nice bunch of pretty waitresses like at RJTV last night. Wonder if RJ handpick 'em hisself. ;-)
Yeah I'm still kicking myself for selling it,that tele was purportedly used by Hiram Bullock a jazz sessionist who used to jam w/ J.Pastorius.It was owned by Hiram's friend who happens to be my cousin's co-worker.Tho I cant validate my cousin's story i bought the guitar anyway.
I cant remember if it was you who picked up that guitar from my house in novaliches or one of your friends/relatives,I recall that severe jetlag mixed w/ hangover tho.Kapitbahay ko pala dati si starfugger,sa Teresa Heights ako malapit sa church.
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I cant believe this thread is still chugging along,of course skunky will always have the last say.His tenacity would have made him a good lawyer even though i could accurately summize he has gone astray from the subject :-D :-D :-D.
Because there WAS never a"Big divide among guitar modellers vs. amp".How could that be if I have both?Nasaan ang division?If there was,who's with you(those who would never use an ampsim) and who's on the other side?I am a Beatle fan,not a Lennon/McCartney fan even though I hate McCartney but loves his music.
The topic was inaccurate,non-existent and should be revised.
Now pls pass that popcorn while I wait for my response to be dissected and refuted.
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Yeah I'm still kicking myself for selling it,that tele was purportedly used by Hiram Bullock a jazz sessionist who used to jam w/ J.Pastorius.It was owned by Hiram's friend who happens to be my cousin's co-worker.Tho I cant validate my cousin's story i bought the guitar anyway.
I cant remember if it was you who picked up that guitar from my house in novaliches or one of your friends/relatives,I recall that severe jetlag mixed w/ hangover tho.Kapitbahay ko pala dati si starfugger,sa Teresa Heights ako malapit sa church.
WTF!?! Hiram Bullock?!! Should have sold it on eBay pala! :-D
Yeah, only reason I ventured into the Lagro/Novaliches areas is I have HS friend/bandmate who grew up in Teresa Heights who could accompany me. Kabilang kalye lang. I picked up the guitar myself pero ung wife mo kausap ko. Si starfugger naalala ko pa ung gear and layout ng loob ng bahay nila (dati). Haha!
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WTF!?! Hiram Bullock?!! Should have sold it on eBay pala! :-D
Yeah, only reason I ventured into the Lagro/Novaliches areas is I have HS friend/bandmate who grew up in Teresa Heights who could accompany me. Kabilang kalye lang. I picked up the guitar myself pero ung wife mo kausap ko. Si starfugger naalala ko pa ung gear and layout ng loob ng bahay nila (dati). Haha!
(http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p10/alroyt/Troytele.jpg)(http://)
Yeah I miss that guitar....and my nephew too.Super OT na to kuya eddie
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I cant believe this thread is still chugging along,of course skunky will always have the last say.His tenacity would have made him a good lawyer even though i could accurately summize he has gone astray from the subject :-D :-D :-D.
Because there WAS never a"Big divide among guitar modellers vs. amp".How could that be if I have both?Nasaan ang division?If there was,who's with you(those who would never use an ampsim) and who's on the other side?I am a Beatle fan,not a Lennon/McCartney fan even though I hate McCartney but loves his music.
The topic was inaccurate,non-existent and should be revised.
Now pls pass that popcorn while I wait for my response to be dissected and refuted.
Dude, the "Big Divide" exists among designers of either technology. Ask Doug Roccaforte, Peter Diezel, Paul Rivera, and Mike Soldano. These guys have tried to push the boundaries of tube amps to superiority. And will these guys ever embrace amp sims and digital modelling? We don't know, but as of now, it's clear that there is still biases among the tube gurus because they don't hear the same harmonic content in digital. And the mere fact that Line 6 is coming out with a tube amp means something... go figure.
Maybe, the better approach to resolving this thread is, "does the cost of amplifiers and miking them in a studio have a huge difference over using amp sims?" Because for me, as I always say, I don't have a problem with technology. Heck, would i be doing multi-track recording now if not for that? But then again, some of the drawbacks of technology can be rooted to laziness. In all honesty, who would lug a Rhodes piano to a gig if one has a Korg X50? Is there a difference to the audience? To the audience, probably NO. But to the player, one huge YES most especially if you grew up with a Rhodes. Now, I have no qualms with convenience most especially if you are a commuter. But once you step into a studio, you must be willing to stretch yourself, and quite frankly, you have to settle with inconveniences to get the best sounds on record. So why would I use an X50 if I can use Rhodes in the studio? I know a lot of studios that have one. I honestly think you can't get that "plank" through a Twin Reverb or suitcase perfectly using digital keyboards. Sa madaling salita, masyado nasasanay sa "ok na 'to" mentality ang karamihan dahil sa teknolohiya.
Now, the same thing applies for recording guitar tracks. Don't let the ease of amp sims fool you into thinking you're getting the same thing. If a POD patch sounds good, then it sounds good. But quoting our very own MarvinQ, "Better competes with good." And what about getting better sounds from an amp? Don't you think that can enhance a performance?
And last thing, people mention cost-efficiency. Are you talking about cost-efficiency to record? A line 6 pocket POD costs $129 and I am sure you can get a lot of sounds from it. Why rent a studio being under pressure if you can use a home PC and record? Now that is cost-efficiency. But when people enter a studio, the assumption there is that the normal recording artist has some needs that his home studio cannot provide, like good room ambience (for drums especially), better mics, and better outboard equipment.
alroy, it is just that the economic situation in this country has a huge effect on our biases on tone.
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1 order of 1 case of beer and a 2 XL peperoni pizza plss :D
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Ang dami niyo nang order na pagkain di niyo pa ako inaalok. Kung wala 'tong thread na 'to, wala kayong kakainin. :-D
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Dude, the "Big Divide" exists among designers of either technology. Ask Doug Roccaforte, Peter Diezel, Paul Rivera, and Mike Soldano. These guys have tried to push the boundaries of tube amps to superiority.
Theyre here with me watching Oprah(more interesting @ this moment),they wouldnt comment coz it bores the hell outta them and I agree.Peter is in my studio playing w/ his Zoom 505 :evil:
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Theyre here with me watching Oprah(more interesting @ this moment),they wouldnt comment coz it bores the hell outta them and I agree.Peter is in my studio playing w/ his Zoom 505 :evil:
Tinawagan ako ni Doug ngayon lang sabi niya di raw totoo sinasabi mo. :-D
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Tinawagan ako ni Doug ngayon lang sabi niya di raw totoo sinasabi mo. :-D
Hndi si Doug yung tumawag sayo,yung driver nya
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e2 po ung pet ko na goat astig diba
(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q20/yasame0321/kamben.jpg)
AY AKALA KO ABOUT YOUR PETS NA thread! ehehehehehe
sorry :-D
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Syet namamaga yung balls
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everyone just please admit that only skunky_funk knows anything about anything :roll:
your posts are full of assumptions and opinions that you try to pass off as facts.
as far back as i can remember in these forums, you have always voiced your "rules" and "requirements" for people to measure up to your "guidelines" of acceptability or legitimacy. thats why ive given up on taking you seriously as a credible source of info a looong time ago
"what makes a pro recording engineer" "what makes a serious recording tool" "do you need to do this to be considered serious" "do you need to know this stuff to be that thing" etc etc all worded out as questions but just barely hiding the rigid opinion you have already formulated
many working pros here who i dare say have more experience than you seem to have no trouble accommodating all tastes and preferences for gear, methods etc. they have repeatedly debunked your obsessive "factual" claims. even your threads on harmony central dont get you much support: here, (http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1688778)here, (http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1740239)here, (http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1736848)here, (http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1729299)here, (http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1711812)and (best one)here (http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1708102)
i have to wonder what your point is in all this? to be perceived as some kind of "tone guru/connoisseur?" cause i dont think anyone's feeling it
thread should have been over with this:
Got both? Use em. Don't got 'em? use what you got. Tubes aren't going anywhere and neither are digital amps because someone, somewhere is going to use them for some song in some record
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everyone just please admit that only skunky_funk knows anything about anything :roll:
your posts are full of assumptions and opinions that you try to pass off as facts.
as far back as i can remember in these forums, you have always voiced your "rules" and "requirements" for people to measure up to your "guidelines" of acceptability or legitimacy. thats why ive given up on taking you seriously as a credible source of info a looong time ago
"what makes a pro recording engineer" "what makes a serious recording tool" "do you need to do this to be considered serious" "do you need to know this stuff to be that thing" etc etc all worded out as questions but just barely hiding the rigid opinion you have already formulated
many working pros here who i dare say have more experience than you seem to have no trouble accommodating all tastes and preferences for gear, methods etc. they have repeatedly debunked your obsessive "factual" claims. even your threads on harmony central dont get you much support: here, (http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1688778)here, (http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1740239)here, (http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1736848)here, (http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1729299)here, (http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1711812)and (best one)here (http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1708102)
i have to wonder what your point is in all this? to be perceived as some kind of "tone guru/connoisseur?" cause i dont think anyone's feeling it
thread should have been over with this:
Ang problema natin sir simple lang... wala pa tayong maproduce na recordings na panlaban sa ibang bansa na hindi POP. And sa POP, walang problema sa guitar modelling.
You know, first thing that we all claim is we are sound engineers. Heck, I just knew I am not one... Because I think marami pa akong dapat malaman. Hindi madali pagpatunog ng maganda sa iba-ibang musical scenario. Pero minsan hindi lang natin matanggap na ang problema talaga natin ay ang kakulangan natin sa gamit. Kaya tayo, pimupuri natin yung POD as if replacement na siya sa lahat ng amps... Hindi man aminin ng mga engineers dito, pero ganoon ang nakikita ko.
Hindi natin basta-basta puwede bitbitin ang salitang "sound engineer", dahil ang sunod na itatanong sa atin ay "for whom?" Si Sir Shinji marami nang nagawang recordings pero hindi ako naniniwalang kuntento siya sa kung anuman ang meron siya ngayon, kaya niya pinaganda ang studio niya. Doesn't that mean something? We need better tools for the job. We can have both cheap and expensive tools. Pero bakit ata pag may isa na mas nakakalamang sa resulta ng may magandang gamit para bang ang sinasabi eh, "uy, kaya ko rin naman patunugin ng ganyan yan using my <place cheap gear here>"
Tutal chuck raised a lot of HC threads, baka malula kayo sa dami ng puwede ko i-link sa HC. And I dare you to post your works there and get fireballed. Let's see how yung mga pinagmamalaki nating trabaho sa recording ay makakakumpetensiya sa ibang bansa.
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everyone just please admit that only skunky_funk knows anything about anything :roll:
your posts are full of assumptions and opinions that you try to pass off as facts.
as far back as i can remember in these forums, you have always voiced your "rules" and "requirements" for people to measure up to your "guidelines" of acceptability or legitimacy. thats why ive given up on taking you seriously as a credible source of info a looong time ago
"what makes a pro recording engineer" "what makes a serious recording tool" "do you need to do this to be considered serious" "do you need to know this stuff to be that thing" etc etc all worded out as questions but just barely hiding the rigid opinion you have already formulated
many working pros here who i dare say have more experience than you seem to have no trouble accommodating all tastes and preferences for gear, methods etc. they have repeatedly debunked your obsessive "factual" claims. even your threads on harmony central dont get you much support: here, (http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1688778)here, (http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1740239)here, (http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1736848)here, (http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1729299)here, (http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1711812)and (best one)here (http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1708102)
i have to wonder what your point is in all this? to be perceived as some kind of "tone guru/connoisseur?" cause i dont think anyone's feeling it
thread should have been over with this:
ouch
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everyone just please admit that only skunky_funk knows anything about anything :roll:
That's what you think. Lahat tayo tenga dapat gamitin at karapatan ko sabihin na hindi ata pareho ang tunog ng amp sims at amps.
your posts are full of assumptions and opinions that you try to pass off as facts.
Post them one by one.
as far back as i can remember in these forums, you have always voiced your "rules" and "requirements" for people to measure up to your "guidelines" of acceptability or legitimacy. thats why ive given up on taking you seriously as a credible source of info a looong time ago
"what makes a pro recording engineer" "what makes a serious recording tool" "do you need to do this to be considered serious" "do you need to know this stuff to be that thing" etc etc all worded out as questions but just barely hiding the rigid opinion you have already formulated
Tell that to SAE if you wanna apply as an instructor for recording. Make your Bedroom genius resume look good. --- That is what disheartened me so much. To be called a sound engineer, kaya mo pumihit sa isang rathole home studio o sa isang malaking studio na may Neve console. Or Protools HD console.
many working pros here who i dare say have more experience than you seem to have no trouble accommodating all tastes and preferences for gear, methods etc. they have repeatedly debunked your obsessive "factual" claims. even your threads on harmony central dont get you much support: here, (http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1688778)here, (http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1740239)here, (http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1736848)here, (http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1729299)here, (http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1711812)and (best one)here (http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1708102)
Even HC is full of arguments, but what I learned about them is that they can speak more intelligible things because THEY HAVE MORE EXPERIENCE. When an engineer says mas maganda ang tunog ng Hammond organ kaysa sa Organ patch sa Korg X5 di ba dapat ako maniwala? Pero di ko madiscount na maaring "mapeke" ng magaling na sound engineer ang pangit na tunog. Pero yan ay dahil alam niya ang tunog ng totoong Hammond organ.
i have to wonder what your point is in all this? to be perceived as some kind of "tone guru/connoisseur?" cause i dont think anyone's feeling it
thread should have been over with this:
I have my own preferences as a person, but I don't dictate what I want to clients. I just give them avenues for the tones they want. And sadly, in the case of guitars, I feel it is half the effort if I just point them to modelling. Sorry people that's my job and I don't mind if you crucify me if that's your method but the clients' ears still tell the story. Eh kasalanan ko ba kung gusto nila yung amps ko sa studio ko? Sa totoo lang hindi pa rin ako kuntento sa gamit ko and I need a modeller in the future for "everything else" and the Spider Valve looks promising.
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ouch
Dude, that's 1/16th of the comments that you get at Harmony Central. People there are 5x as relentless as your previous posts.
So now since naging HC ang usapan, bakit di natin i-post mga trabaho natin doon tutal ang claim natin "experienced" ang marami dito?
Hindi kaya yun nga ang problema? May mga pre-conceptions na tayo kaya mas mahirap umusad ang industriya natin? We can learn the science of recording but the art and practice is the difficult part. A monkey can learn to twiddle with knobs, but it cannot feel as we humans do.
Halimbawa, Delta is just one of the "tone is in the fingers" type of people and he thinks a minimalist setup for recording does the job FOR HIM. Well and good. But can he speak for all the other players? What about loud players? What about those who cannot feel chugs of high gain with modelling? .
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Dude, that's 1/16th of the comments that you get at Harmony Central. People there are 5x as relentless as your previous posts.
So now since naging HC ang usapan, bakit di natin i-post mga trabaho natin doon tutal ang claim natin "experienced" ang marami dito?
Hindi kaya yun nga ang problema? May mga pre-conceptions na tayo kaya mas mahirap umusad ang industriya natin? We can learn the science of recording but the art and practice is the difficult part. A monkey can learn to twiddle with knobs, but it cannot feel as we humans do.
Halimbawa, Delta is just one of the "tone is in the fingers" type of people and he thinks a minimalist setup for recording does the job FOR HIM. Well and good. But can he speak for all the other players? What about loud players? What about those who cannot feel chugs of high gain with modelling? Marami pa akong puwede i-bring-up based on experience.
ouch parin
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ouch parin
Ouch talaga because that's reality. Hindi dahil sinabi mo na ouch. The proof in the pudding is that we are having difficulty competing with our neighboring countries. And if you want, you can ask our very own Baldo about what he has to say...
Should we sound engineers wash our hands off of that? One big No...
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the ouch refers to chuck's comment on u
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the ouch refers to chuck's comment on u
Whoever. MAlamang nasaktan yan nung sinabi ko ano requirements ko para masabi kang sound engineer so he's returning the favor.
Well, we cannot just present our resumes with our bedroom or project studio ingenuities. To be a sound engineer, you can be thrown out to any studio, big or small.
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Isa pa, why is everyone trying to make it appear that I am being anti-POD? The POD is just a subset of one's tone palette; but the way I look at it, they want to claim it can replace anything. Sorry but that's how I see it.
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okay now youre trying to make it personal
i never claimed to be any kind of recording engineer. music is not even my primary means of making a living. dont worry im not trying to pass off my bedroom as a "pro studio" or my work as "world class" . im not trying to steal work from the big studios either. i just do what i do and if the client is happy and i get paid im good
MAlamang nasaktan yan nung sinabi ko ano requirements ko para masabi kang sound engineer so he's returning the favor.
no thats not it. my point in posting in this thread is simply: everyone in his/her right mind already knows that sims are not the same as amps. theres no point in going over this over and over again.once again:
Quote from: abyssinianson
Got both? Use em. Don't got 'em? use what you got. Tubes aren't going anywhere and neither are digital amps because someone, somewhere is going to use them for some song in some record
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The End!
ganda ng movie! may action drama at suspense! naubos ko din yung popcorn! hehehehe
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OT reply kay dodjie:
bakit hindi world class ang tunog natin?
dahil sa gamit?
i don't think so. madami tayong gamit na magaganda, madami tayong world class studios dito sa bansa natin.
SKILLS ang issue sa tingin ko. kasi kinakain ng thread na to ang oras na sana sinespend natin sa pag practice sa loob ng mga studios natin.
if you would please stop injecting your "facts" into everyone's subconscious and start posting more uplifting and positive threads, maybe everyone would be more hopeful and start exerting more effort in perfecting his craft. kung baga tulong-tulong tayo, hindi yung dina-douse mo yung hopes ng mga kababayan mong home recordists. you say gamit ang dahilan and because we all don't have megabucks, dapat bang ma-stuck nalang tayo at tanggapin nalang natin ang sitwasyon? dapat bang isipin ng mga newbies na nakakabasa nito na "ahhh oo nga hindi natin kayang maging world class dahil behringer lang ang kaya ng bulsa natin? to be honest i have heard GREAT recordings that i believe are world class that were recorded with modest gear. gear as modest as yours and mine. so what gives?
pero sige, i'll humor you for a moment. kung gamit ang problema, ano ang ipo-propose mong solusyon kung sakaling wala tayong pambili ng gamit?
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Ranting and crying like a baby to another forum eh?POD is not for SERIOUS recording?Where did you get that freakin idea?I could name a few artists who utilized POD for their albums,you think theyre a big joke to you?Dude I read your posts @ HC,that was lame and to think they'd agree with you?Not a chance.
This thread has lost it,you can lock it anytime sirs,mohawk's goat made more sense.
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SKILLS ang issue sa tingin ko. kasi kinakain ng thread na to ang oras na sana sinespend natin sa pag practice sa loob ng mga studio natin.
Well kung member ka ng 88 forums mawawalan ka nga ng skills,buti 2 lang ang forum ko hihihi(punta kayo Gibson forum ok dun madami kayo matututunan).
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Ranting and crying like a baby to another forum eh?POD is not for SERIOUS recording?Where did you get that freakin idea?I could name a few artists who utilized POD for their albums,you think theyre a big joke to you?Dude I read your posts @ HC,that was lame and to think they'd agree with you?Not a chance.
Are you saying "Wala yan sa lolo ko" has become "isusumbong kita sa nanay ko"?
Now, that is just sad.
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All this whining about tube vs. modelers would have more credence if only people owned and had experience with the real thing, and could actually offer a choice IN THEIR STUDIO between the real thing and the modeler.
Pano kaya kung may client ka na walang knowledge about POD pero gusto ng Dumble tone para sa recording nya. Tapos wala ka namang totoong Dumble. Pero nung parinig at pasubok mo irecord ung POD Dumble sim sabi nya, "Maganda ah! Sige, gamitin natin!"
Sasabihin mo ba sa kanya na, "Sorry, pero hintayin mo na lang na maka-afford/makabili ako ng Dumble. Although it sounds good to you and sounds like Dumbles on cd, it doesn't sound like the Dumble I imagine it to be e... Too bad I've got higher standards than you... "
Otherwise, it's all "virtual tone-masturbation" *'scuse me french*
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Prrrrrrttttt!!!!!
I am sorely, SORELY tempted to lock this thread simply because:
a. Skunk, I'm sorry to say, but most of your replies are designed for flamebaiting. You love the putting in the last word.
b. Let's go back to my "word-of-the-day" which is obfuscate, specifically the 2nd definition which states, ' to make obscure or unclear: to obfuscate a problem with extraneous information'. Skunk, you're obfuscating the issues by mixing up 2 different scenarios, live and recording. FM has no basis when an amp is loud, almost the same with an ampsim if the monitoring used is just as loud. FM is only important to listeners when listening at lower volumes so most guitarists can discard FM as part of their 'listening' equation. For recording engineers, we use nearfields which should negate FM except when we monitor at low volumes, which is also moot since engineers shouldn't move any monitor EQ if their goal is to mix properly when their monitors are already properly calibrated.
c. Flexibility in recording is achieved by getting both the mic amp and the DI'd signal for possible re-amping later. Even in other countries (or rather, especially), engineers usually like to have the option to reamp a guitar track because what was recorded sometimes doesn't fit the song in general. Does this mean that the raging amp that the guitarist recorded to was crap gear? Probably not, but it does mean that the emphasis isn't with the gear, but WITH THE SONG and how the other instruments complement each other. Amps may inspire the musician, but merely looking at the song just from the viewpoint of an amp or ampsim is extremely myopic.
c. There's a perception that digital sounds worse. Well, it does, to a degree and somehow, this can be proven, that's why there is this trend towards higher sampling rates as well as higher bitrates. Higher bitrates afford you more headroom but the emphasis in bitrate is not in the last upper 6 dB, but in the last 8 bits where the fade to nothingness defines how smooth the converters sound. Higher samplerates, OTOH, push up into supersonics the anti-aliasing brickwall filters which some blame for taking away the 'organic-ness' of sound. The prevailing theory is that upper harmonics, the ones that we don't hear, are lost because of the brickwall filters and raising the sample rate brings back some of those perceived harmonics, perceived because we sense it more than actually hear it.
Short anecdote: I remember Gerard Salonga's post (with Angee) about their description regarding an analog mix as "bumabalot". I can only think that it's possible that jitter was part of the equation there since jitter has been known to reduce soundstaging. Hopefully, better clocks can address this but GC4 has one of the best listening suites and gear that I've seen. If Angee was able to tell the difference between the 2 recordings, then I guess the fault lay in the original recordings themselves.
d. Lastly, it's one thing to have an animated conversation, but personal attacks aren't going to win you anything, especially in the friends department. Your bias is getting the best of you, and your ego isn't going to win you much support either. No man is an island, Dodj, but if you want to be one, hey, I'm not stopping you.
I will keep this thread open for now in hopes that the issue will clarify itself... hopefully.
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Halimbawa, Delta is just one of the "tone is in the fingers" type of people and he thinks a minimalist setup for recording does the job FOR HIM. Well and good. But can he speak for all the other players? What about loud players? What about those who cannot feel chugs of high gain with modelling? .
Dyaske! More misinformation at that! If you're still in grade 1, row 4 regarding that "Tone is in the fingers" vs "Tone is in the wallet" thingie (as you are about "POD vs modellers"), haaaay... ewan ko na, Dodjie. Sobrang mas progresibo na mga pananaw ng tao. Mga ganyang generalization is easily cut down by any logical thinking person.
We're not as simple minded as you insist on thinking, Dodjie.
EDIT: Sorry, KitC. Nauna ung post ko by a hair.
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No probs, Joric. It did take me some time to write it... I actually started while this thread was at page 13.
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No probs, Joric. It did take me some time to write it... I actually started while this thread was at page 13.
Well, better start writing a rejoinder now cuz I'm sure skunky's already writing a punto-for-punto response to your post and others'... which takes us to page 15, 16... So by the time you finish writing your reponse to skunky's post-in-the-making, your on page 17 na!
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i read thru chuck sabbath's posts and HC links. kit, flame bait talaga tong thread na to. what do we expect from a self-confessed ash soul (Souls of the Amp Simulator Haters Club) and hate spreader?
since we're on the HC topic na din, my favorite quotes were from Elric and Death Monkey:
http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1708102&page=4 (http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1708102&page=4)
i find that dodjie's posts are all pregnant with whining and a lot of negative energy. read them long enough and the laws of attraction will start working against you.
seriously kit, how is that ignore button coming along?
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Well, better start writing a rejoinder now cuz I'm sure skunky's already writing a punto-for-punto response to your post and others'...
It's a strange gift, that one. On the upside, I'd like to have Dodj as part of my debate team, if we get to that point. Think of the possibilities... first diffuse and confuse the opponent... (somehow, as I'm writing this, Rex Navarette's SBC Packers skit is going thru my head... see those people over there? Is busy! :lol: :lol: :lol: )
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seriously kit, how is that ignore button coming along?
I'll have to ask the admins about that. But admit it, Haze, how much popcorn and soda did you have the past few pages? i'm not a coffee drinkin' man, but I learned something new from x_taxi... See? This thread has a few good things going for it.
Now where's the vino, Vince? :-D
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homayged! buhay pa pala ang thread na to?
kung ganun pa offtoic naman ako:
Catch rubberpool tonight at Club Dredd (Gweilos Libis)
w/ Pupil and The Ambassadors..friendly plug lang ha :)
and sa September 24, reunion gig ng orphanlily @ Magnet
Katipunan...
thanks, sorry offtopic, carpe diem!
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Hope you also posted in the Gigs forum, Terence. Join in the 'discussions' and have some popcorn.
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Well, better start writing a rejoinder now cuz I'm sure skunky's already writing a punto-for-punto response to your post and others'... which takes us to page 15, 16... So by the time you finish writing your reponse to skunky's post-in-the-making, your on page 17 na!
Delta, all I am saying is your "cost-efficiency" approach is not necessarily what everyone wants. Kaya kung masaya ka sa PODxt tone mo, don't make me (or everyone else think) that it will work for everyone and any musical situation.
Bow.
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Isa pa, why is everyone trying to make it appear that I am being anti-POD? The POD is just a subset of one's tone palette; but the way I look at it, they want to claim it can replace anything. Sorry but that's how I see it.
POD's are not meant to replace amps and no one is claiming that which is why they are called "simulators." However, people may find it hard to think that you aren't anti POD when you make contradictory statements like saying a POD is only part of a producer's production palette which infers a support for the usage of POD and POD-like units while making a claim about POD units like:
"But IMO, it is this "convenient route" that destroys the discipline of finding one's tone." - quote from you in the thread,"An Inquiry for POD owners" dated July 13, 2007.
I mean, come on, man, what is one supposed to think? I make no secret about the fact that I like amps as much as PODs. Sh*t, tools are tools, you know? Whether one uses PODs or amps in the studio is all relative to what sound you want, what you can afford to provide as a producer and how competitve you want your sound to be in comparison to other commercial music.
All in all, I think this this topic was meant to be inflammatory in some way because for the past, I dunno, gazillion pages opinions have been tosses around a topic that really doesn't have a hard and fast answer. But, here, I'll give you my opinion on the matter about why there is such a divide between amps and modellers: because the tools are there and the motivation to use particular tools over another are determined by the desire to produce a particular sound AND the availability of resources to get your music recorded. Naturally, if one would like a vintage tube amp sound but does not have access to a vintage set of amps will do the next best thing - rent sh*t out OR use a modeller. Pic your poison and move on to the main meat of your job - recording music!
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That was utterly, UTTERLY lame, skunkyfunk. People who are in a business KNOW that the bottom line is always about cost. If cost isn't an issue, then one's business can only be considered a hobby.
Maawa ka naman sa sarili mo. You were pwned over at HC. Give it a rest.
I'm locking this thread now.